PCGS vs PCGS vs NGC Three gradings in 15 years, you be the judge.
coynclecter
Posts: 2,111
Here is a Huguenot commemorative that has been through 3 gradings. The old pre-1990 grade by PCGS was MS65, Broken out and resubmitted in June it came back MS62, broken out again and submitted to NGC it comes back MS65. I graded it a solid 65 myself.
Any idea where I'll be sending my coins for grading???
Any idea where I'll be sending my coins for grading???
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I sat at a table with a dealer friend of mine yesterday as several dealers were looking at a couple of beautifully toned raw standing liberty quarters that we were trying to decide if they had real or AT toning, and what grade the coins would be. The toning question was split right down the middle it seemed - 4 real and 4 AT. The grades ranged anywhere from AU58 to MS65. It kinda makes a collector wonder - hope no one out there is betting the farm and the mortgage on their graded coins! LOL
Frank
An Ode, An Ostrich
Be Thou My Wisdom, And Thou My True Word.
Naught Be All Else To Me Save That Thou Art.
By Day Or By Night, I Rely Only On Thine Opinion.
Naught Be All Else To Me Save Thine True Grade.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
That's not how PCGS grades. If it were three graders, and a finalizer, then the coin would get a 65 grade.
Isn't it amazing how long it takes for that little pea to develop? Perhaps that little pea should be buried again...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
After I had already started composing my message, I realized that I forgot most of the song. My ``ode'' was supposed to be at least one real stanza in length!
I think my pea has shrunk over the years...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
LOL!
Let's be kind. It's hard to teach ostriches basic math. I mean, it's not like he's got the brains of Mr. Ed?!? And, you wouldn't want him to feel STUPID, would you? That would not be nice...
LOL!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
over the past decade.
Brian.
Did WSM just insult EVERYONE (excluding me) by calling them idiots, or is he announcing to everyone that he doesn't talk to himself?
So... who here thinks an ostrich cries tears? It's a mammal, so I'm guessing that it does.
EVP
PS I'm not the EVIL Prowler. It's EVILLAGE Prowler!
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Hey, look! There's a hole for you. Better hurry before another ostrich claims it!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Now WSM, you mentioned this new math you use for determining a grade for sight unseen purchases, tell me, what happens if you don't know the history? Or better yet, would you have paid 65 money if the coin was never cracked out to begin with? After all, PCGS later ruled that it was really only a 62. What about the coins you already own? Are any of those grades true? How would you know if they weren't?
Finally, EVP, last I checked, Ostriches were birds, not mammals. Although flightless, and quirky in so many ways, they are still birds. As for their tears, who knows? I think many of them live in desert areas so it wouldn't surprise me if they actually had some sort of protective skin that covered their eyes from the dust and sand. But I'll leave that to Animal Planet.
Ostriches get into the picture. I do not collect Australian coins. I would recommend to those, who
wish to discuss ostriches to join the World Coin Forum.
Brian.
A quick question for you...why did you break it out in the first place????
Greg
As I sit here before my computer, I feel chastened. You are so right. Ostriches are flightless birds. Duh!
Also, I don't think I was insulting WSM. In fact, I think I was insulting all the ostriches of the world by using their pea-brained intellectual capacity against them. I hope the Audobon Society doesn't look too unfavorably at what I've done...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The first photo didn't do much justice. It is mark free and has a great strike for a Huguenot. I thought it had a small chance at 66 which is 3X the price. I figured , worst case, it would come back in a new 65 holder. I have been taken to school.
I hoped sharing this would also educate a few others, I didn't expect it to turn into a "grudge match."
I have less success this way but no setbacks either.
This is also why 90% of my slabs are older slabs.
Then after you sent it off to NGC to be overgraded again you would have made a killing
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Not to question you, or to claim that PCGS is always right, but could the following
have happened?
1. Coin is sent to PCGS many years ago - is correctly graded a 65.
2. Coin is cracked out, possibly getting dinged or hit, even if it is in shipment during transit or whatever. Even if the coin was securly packed, you never know. Now coin is correctly graded a 62.
3. Coin is cracked and sent to NGC and is overgraded a 65.
Just a thought!
JJacks
I would bet the entire price of the MS65 piece that if it was sent in for grade review, it would still be a PCGS MS65.
jtryka,
Woh a minute there! I never for a second suggested that the coin was switched! Please read what I was saying. Maybe, just maybe the coin got an extra mark or extra friction or something during the process of cracking it out, putting it into the holder, into the box for shipping, shipping it (maybe across country for all I know), still who knows where in the post office, etc. Then when PCGS got it for the second time, they saw a 62 coin. The coin was cracked and sent to NGC, and even with any new problems, they see a 65 coin.
How can you call it kool-aid! Would you like to be buying this coin as an MS65 now! This is why the coin should have been sent in for re-grade as Bill suggested and not cracked out. If it is cracked out, please don't complain about getting a lower grade unless you can guarantee 100% that the coin showed up to the PCGS graders desk in the same shape the second time as it was the first time.
JJacks
It is worth more in the NGC holder, at least according to the Blue Sheet. Also, since no one here has seen the coin (except the owner of the coin) I find it hard to believe anyone's grading comments. (or other what if comments)
Here is a new what if. What if PCGS got it wrong this time? Obviously they were wrong once, shall we flip a coin to decide?
<< <i>Some people just don't get it. Amazing. Why is it that PCGS was wrong the "first" time? Why can't they be wrong this time? >>
No I do get it. Its a mute point, that was PCGS opinion both times. Had the owner of the coin gone through the correct process for PCGS regrading a coin it would either still be in a PCGS MS65 slab (NGC says its MS65) or like I said he would have a check in one hand signed by PCGS and the coin in the other paying compensation for their mistake and thus made a killing when NGC over graded it MS65.
Like JJacks said, how do we know the coin was not damaged in the crack out process and PCGS is correct both times?
jtryka,
At no time did JJacks say or imply he thought the coin was switched.
<< <i>Bill, what rule should I apply when looking at PCGS slabs now? Is it that all the older slabs are overgraded? >>
You should continue to do just what you do now. Buy the coins you agree with the grade assigned. All companies and people make mistakes on ocassion. This little test or whatever it was proves nothing. If you do not agree with a grade send it in for a grade review at which time you will either get it back at same grade or higher or get it back with a check for compensation for their mistake.
It is really rather easy.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>Here is a new what if. What if PCGS got it wrong this time? Obviously they were wrong once, shall we flip a coin to decide? >>
Read my previous post for an answer to that one. This thread should have never been started. This little test or whatever it was says nor proves nothing. There are to many WHAT IF'S.
And I guess you think NGC is ALWAYS right.
Here is a new what if. What if PCGS got it right this time after making a mistake the first time? If he had sent it in for a grade review he would now have compensation for their mistake. Since he did not he is still stuck with an overgraded coin. Only differeance being it is now in an NGC slab.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Perhaps you did miss the point here, the person who started this thread was not talking about the correct or incorrect way to submit coins to PCGS or anything like that, I believe he was simply showing how terribly inconsistent PCGS can be over time via his example.
The truth is this kind of thing happens every day, didn't anyone hear wondercoin talk about a crackout artist who just recently had nearly every PQ coin he resubmitted come back a lower grade??
I too just got back 3 coins from PCGS that I had broken out of PCGS holders a few years ago to use as a display in a large Capital holder and just recently sent in again. They were previously PCGS graded MS67, MS67, and MS65PL.......well they just came back last week......MS65, MS66, and MS64 (no PL). Oh my!!! I am just sooo shocked (sarcastic)!!
Wanna hear another one?? I also just recently broke open a super nice and PQ Morgan in PCGS MS66PL to send to NGC (just to use the free gradings I had before they expired). NGC graded the coin an MS64PL, so I laughed and again sent it back to PCGS and they graded it a 66PL again.
Nothing anyone says here regarding coins being cracked out and coming back drastically different would surprise me in the least. I've seen it happen hundreds of times already.
Dragon
Wanna hear another one?? I also just recently broke open a super nice and PQ Morgan in PCGS MS66PL to send to NGC (just to use the free gradings I had before they expired). NGC graded the coin an MS64PL, so I laughed and again sent it back to PCGS and they graded it a 66PL again.
Doesn't that mean that PCGS WAS consistant on that example? They graded it a 66PL the first time, and a 66PL the second time, right? It just shows that the different grading services can vary.
I think another question is this: Does anyone have any example of cracking an NGC coin from 10-15 years ago, and getting the exact same grade. People seem to think that they should always get the same grade even 10 years later. If you really expect the same grade, why crack the coin out of the holder? Just send it in for a re-holder or crossover.
JJacks
<< <i>Perhaps you did miss the point here, the person who started this thread was not talking about the correct or incorrect way to submit coins to PCGS or anything like that, I believe he was simply showing how terribly inconsistent PCGS can be over time via his example. >>
No I did get the point. He came in here bad mouthing PCGS and then implying NGC was better because they graded the coin MS65.
ALL grading services (including the great NGC) have gone through changes in grading standards over the years. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.
I was just pointing out to him that there is a thing called GRADE REVIEW that is in place to protect collectors when this happens. If someone chooses to play the crack out game then they get what they get. No sympathy here.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I wasn't badmouthing PCGS, the majority of the coins I own are PCGS. I also wasn't looking for sympathy, I took my chances and this is just lunch money anyway. I also wasn't implying that this could not happen the other way , I'm sure it has. I will finally not imply but will simply state a fact that has been proven to me and has been an opinion of many here...Right now PCGS is grading very tight, or undergrading in comparison to thier previous grading standards.
Finally, I was hoping simply to share an experience for what it was worth, If you care to derive nothing from it then that is your choice.
BTW I will be glad to bring the coin to Long Beach if anyone would care to look at it.
Coyn
How do we know in this instance the coin did not get damaged in the crack out process? How do we know it was not subjected to some environmental damage when it was shipped in the flip, polly bag or whatever? Like I said before, how do we know PCGS did not make a mistake the first time and now NGC has just followed suit?
It says and proves nothing.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
The photos are all in the beginning post. Look for yourself. Now that my integrity has brought into question I will leave. As I said before, If you wish to gain something here that's fine, if not then I apologize for interrupting your evening. If you will sleep better believing I cut and pasted these from ebay then you must be right,
Good Evening, gentlemen
I am just so sick of the NGC/PCGS $hit that goes on here. I do not mind constructive criticism but there seems to be a lot of people here (not saying you are one of them) on the "PCGS" forum who think it is their duty to convert everyone over to NGC and take every chance they get to bash PCGS in the process.
How do we know PCGS was not just loose then, correct now, and NGC is loose now. OR PCGS was correct then, tight now and NGC is correct now. I could rephrase that 20 different ways to justify anything about either service. I am not saying your coin is not a MS65, I really do not know.
All the grading services have gone through changes in grading standards over the years and will again in the future. Everyone knows that and should never accept the grade on the slab as an absolute. Thus they should also know if they choose to remove a coin from its holder their is a risk involved and accept what happens.
<< <i>Now that my integrity has brought into question I will leave. >>
I really hope you do not feel like I am questioning you integrity. By no means was that ever my intent.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
What a normal person sees:
PCGS grades it a 65 ten years ago. They regrade it today, and it becomes a 62. NGC takes a look and they see a 65. The evidence seems to indicate that the coin is a 65, but PCGS screwed the pooch the second time around.
What the kool-aid causes you to see:
PCGS grades it a 65 ten years ago. Something must have happened to the coin, either when removed or during shipping, hence the coin is now a 62. NGC grades it a 65, but that really doesn't mean anything since they routinely overgrade coins by 3 points or more.
So my suggestion is, go to sleep tonight, and when you wake up tomorrow, DO NOT DRINK anything that anyone hands you in a small dixie cup. Later tomorrow after drinking only water, re-read this thread, and you may see things differently.
<< <i>Another question, How many people consistantly tell the truth? I havent been here that long, but I can think of a few people who have told little white lies, or have been busted for being unscruptulous. If Im lying, Im dying! >>
<< <i>Nobody pointed a finger at you coynclecter! >>
WSM, sometimes I just shake my head while reading your posts. So who exactly was lying here? I read it the way coyn probably read it, and you seem to imply that the person bringing up this topic may be lying (hence coyn's integrity brought into question). Of course, I didn't think coyn was lying, I just thought you said something ridiculous, implying he may be lying to show PCGS is inconsistent, despite the fact he included photos of the coin! WAKE UP!!! Someone did point a finger at coyn WSM, it was YOU!
stuck in a rut here for awhile over the old PCGS vs. NGC deal. i'm left wondering why the subject coin wasn't cracked out of the NGC 62 holder and resubmitted to NGC again, or to be more scientific in our little passion play, done 10 years hence to be more subjective.
the troubling point i see with all the bashing threads right now is that any number of examples can be stated to make a point for either service. i don't really see any of it having a constructive purpose. i do see it as having a personal agenda and that's a baffling thing to me. if a certain service is preferred for any number of reasons by any individual i think it should be used by whoever wants to use it. but to come here and duke-it-out over which of the two majors is better-more accurate-more consistent seems childish. we can all agree on the fact that we have differing opinions on which service is better-more accurate-more consistent, so what's the point of it all??
a thread like this might have some usefullness if it was based on a much larger sampling that had some logical structure, but really, one coin submitted at a 10 year interval and than only once to a different service and a conclusion drawn that is supposed to prove...........nothing. and in defense, the insults start---kool aid and ostriches. this is really starting to get old. isn't it time to move on to some other topic-of-the-month??
al h.
Thats BS. Now I am a comedy hour and have lost my credibililty? My first post was me being a smart $ss, I would hate to disappoint you.
Why is it all the NGC fans/PCGS bashers are all great insightful collectors and PCGS supporters are looked upon as kool aid drinkers, ostriches, or a joke? I sugested many different things that could have been factors in what happened. Some putting PCGS at fault others NCG. I know PCGS has problems, I also know NGC has problems. Read my posts, I think I was pretty fair and consistent. You know I do not have a problem with NGC. To be fair I don't recall ever bashing NGC I just prefere PCGS. If that makes me a stupid ostrich collector with my head in the sand in some peoples eyes so be it. By the way, ostriches don't really put their heads in the sand or dirt.
On the other hand a lot of NGC fan/PCGS bashers that posted here really seem to be the ones who are a little sensative and have to resort to name calling in an attempt to discredit others. At least when I do not agree with peoples statements or opinions I still am able to act like an adult.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I want to apologize Mark if I offended you!