Currency question
danglen
Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭
I know this is a coin forum, but I have a client that has a $5 Demand Note from 1861 (New York). He wants the note authenticated and graded. Can anyone give me any feedback about currency grading services? If it's not smaill, flat and round, I don't collect it.
danglen
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
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Just some friendly free advice!
adrian
BTW, it is a free country ( is it not?), and that is my opinion.
adrian
I guess money and all those years of college......can't buy you any class. Too bad for you.
danglen, i have very little paper, but most everyone i know sneers at cgc & cga. i'd strongly suggest you look up one of the big-time dealers as your bets bet. btw, i always have a tendency to overgrade paper, not at all like w/ coins. which is why, based on my experience, you or your friend needs to get plenty of input. way too easy to screw up.
K S
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
"Both services are imoral and corrupt!"
Danglen asked a good question and he deserves an answer from someone who knows what they're talking about. Bustman acts like he knows what he is talking about. Would you take the advice of a carpenter who doesn't own a hammer a saw or a level? Let's find out whether or not Bustman knows what he is talking by finding out whether or not he even is "a currency" person" or whether or not he is a poser. I'll make it really easy. Just a few easy questions.
Bustman - what is the official name of the Census and who publishes it?
What is the name of the leading monthly currency newspaper and tell us something about what is on page two that would lead us to believe that you subscribe to it.
And finally, what is Greensheet bid for a FR-114?
It should take you less than 5 minutes to answer these three questions.
Ok! Now, are you even a currency guy? Or a poser?
My prediction is that he either does not answer the questions or he takes a really long time to answer.
Ok, Bustman, this is your chance to shine!
adrian
Demand Notes.
Ray
I would ask myself why the Professional Currency Dealers Assoc. is against currency grading and trying to get their members to stay away from graded currency. Why has "conserving" currency all of a sudden become such a big issue when it has been going on for years????
I don't think I would waste time or money on getting any currency graded as I don't think it would lock in a value as it kind of does with coins, but that is just my opinion also
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms
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Do you know coins? What would you think of someone handing out advice about coins that says that he doesn't own a magnifying glass, doesn't get Coin World, doesn't know what a PCGS or NGC population report is and says and thinks that PCGS and NGC are "imoral and corrupt"?
Does that help any?
adrian
GOOD LUCK on ANY kind of legal action as a result of a Forum/BBS posting!
That is laughable! Knock it off and just exchange barbs - the legal crap won't stand up.
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
Here's a good one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1377567197
[Incidentally, I sold this Tombstone for less than the $8100 it sold for originally, and more than the note ended up selling for the second time (less than $3000). I know that sounds funny but it will make sense if you read the above address.]
I got into currency because I love it -- the same reason I got into coins, and rare books, and antiquarian prints. I buy certified currency (that I have checked out in the Census) that I like - currency that meets my approval as to the assigned grade. And, I sell it. And I buy more. And I sell it. And I buy back stuff I sold. And I reject the pieces that I don't like, for any reason that tickles my fancy because it's my money. And I work on very tight margins. Do you think guys who make 30% on their raw notes like certification which tightens the margins to 10% or less? Uh...."no" is the correct answer.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
"GOOD LUCK on ANY kind of legal action as a result of a Forum/BBS posting!
That is laughable! Knock it off and just exchange barbs - the legal crap won't stand up."
-- So, we should do whatever we can get away with, right? Is that your motto?
Good question. Because the currency dealers who disdain certification are making a bid deal out of everything they can make a bid deal out of.
And I don't blame them. If I thought my family was eventually going to have to move out of our home and into a smaller home, and if I feared that my income was going to get whacked in half, I would think real fast about how to nip that puppy (certification) in the bud. Disparaging every aspect of currency certification is their goal. Whenever CGA or CGC makes a mistake (and who among us is perfect?) the dealers of raw currency make that their focus. Who spends the most money in the monthly rag? Old time dealers of raw currency. But, BNR knows what's coming and they will do what Q. David Bowers did when coin certification became a certainty. They will start to sing the glories of certification. Bowers even started his own certification company - Hallmark. Don't get me wrong, in my mind, Mr. Bowers stands right behind Mr. Hall.
And even the dealers in raw currency know what is inevitable - but they want to forestall it as long as possible. You like raw currency? All you need is a pair of scissors.
adrian
Dag! I was hoping you were gonna show all of us how smart you are! And how much class YOU have!
adrian
Incidentally, CGC (moneytreeme on eBay) has a very good book and a very good video on the ABC's of grading currency.
Good luck!
adrian
K S
Bustman
And you suggest I behave? It is you who disparages two good companies without so much as a clue as to what is going on. Are you over the age of 13? If not, I will try to be a little nicer but you should be more careful about what you say - reputations are easy to damage with careless words.
dorkkarl - the simple question was about the currency grading companys. Bustman thinks he knows the answer. I'm trying to help everyone know that he doesn't know what he is talking about.
"Drivel" is you asking for others to come to your aid in being hall monitor. Handle it yourself - try being pursuasive.
adrian
please show exactly where you gave constructive and useful feedback per danglen's request.
(sorry i can't be as "persuasive" as you , uh, ain't.)
K S
Thanks for the phone numbers. I will pass them on to my client and let him take it from there. My Dad used to say to me "Make money at what you know, lose money at what other people know". I think I'll stick to the little round flat things until I take a paper money course at the ANA Summmer Camp. As for the input from everyone else on this thread, I appreciate your intent and have taken your comments (at leat the ones directed at me) to heart. Never thought this would get to be a two page thread.
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
K S
Now, as to what info I posted - I didn't give anything privately to Danglen -- I posted the phone numbers of CGA and CGC (in this thread - take a look behind us) and I listed an eBay address to a Tombstone in 66 that i listed and sold that has a very long explanation by yours truly of why certification for currency makes sense and why buying raw notes is NOT what you want to do, generally speaking. I say "generally speaking" because if you are buying currency that is inexpensive (relative to your income) you probably don't need to focus on certified notes. Bill Gates can buy any raw note he wants and has nothing to worry about.
Think about it logically. If certification has tightened the profits of dealers (given more value and given additional protection to buyers) why doesn't that make sense for currency? Is their something inherently different about paper that makes it not intelligently certifiable? Uh.....and the answer is.......no.
Almost finally, CGA and CGC are not perfect. Who is? But they are good. WAY, WAY better than trusting a dealer's opinion about his own raw notes. And that's what matters. Being ugly is better than being crippled, er I mean specially enabled.
Finally .........."Hey, this here note, itsa goodin'. Lookie here. It's a gem, says so right here in my hand writin'. I stand behind my notes. Sold one to my Maw last year, she needed the money last month for a bridge, I paid her almost half of what she gave me in the first place. See? I'll treat you good too!"
adrian
sounds like we're on the same page, dude.
K S
I collect National Bank Notes, and there are some notes that are so scarce, condition is a secondary (or even terciary) factor.
To answer your questions, the only census I care about is the one by Don C. Kelly, although I have used the Hickman Project books from time to time when an older note is encountered (a Red Seal that shows up on eBay occassionally comes to mind). Unfortunately, as Dr. Kelly would no doubt admit, the census is only a guide as there are unreported notes in collections.
I don't worry about Friedberg numbers, given that my collecting interest is so limited, but the chances of me buying a $10 Bison (you did say 114, right?) at Green Sheet is immaterial because one probably won't cross my desk anytime soon. I'd be more inclined, if I was interested in buying one, to look at ads in the Bank Note Reporter for two or three months to get an idea of selling prices. I'd also look at eBay and the CAA permanent auction archives to get an idea before jumping in with both feet.
In my experience, it's not just the PCDA that doesn't like third party grading; there are many collectors who don't also. I've spoken to many fellow Society of Paper Money Collectors (I'm member number 10457) on the subject. Many don't like it.
I personally don't like third party grading for the following reasons:
1) I can't feel the paper. When a note is pressed, the fibers feel "flat." Also, I can hold the note up to a light at an angle where the surface of the note is perpendicular to the light source and see any small folds or other imperfections that affect grade. I can't do this when the note is in a holder.
2) I can't smell the paper. If a note has been bleached, there will be a distinct odor normally. I can't know this if a note is in a holder.
3) I personally don't like trying to extrapolate coin grading scales to paper currency. To me the scaled used by sport cards collectors would make more sense since they take printing, centering and other paper only related items into account.
I can see the following advantages to third party grading services:
1) The notes are genuine. Although counterfeiting doesn't seem to be an issue at this point, a reputable service will help dispel any reservations about buying a note based on authenticity.
2) The grade gives a basis for negotiation. My CU might be different than your CU, but if an unbaised (hopefully) company grades a note a certain way, we have the basis for discussion.
3) Set grades open up currency collecting to investors. This IMHO is a double edged sword. Investors many times mean rising prices, but collectors keep a hobby going.
These are just my opinions. What should Danglen do? It's his client's note. He should do what he feels most comfortable with. He should be aware that there are positive and negative aspects to leaving a note "raw" or having it "slabbed."
I would welcome a continuing discussion on this issue. I would invite anyone to the next Dallas Coin Club meeting on Thursday, September 19th at 7 pm. Meetings are held at the Calle Doce restaurant, 1925 Skillman, Dallas, TX 75206. I will be there, and other paper collectors will be there.
Charlie
"I was the one that gave danglen some references and phone numbers - he got mixed up on his source..."
You have made a simple mistake - I wrote, in this thread (and you can go back and read it if you care):
"Thursday September 12, 2002 9:02 PM
Danglen - you can reach CGC at 602-493-4758 and CGA at 908-788-8866.
Incidentally, CGC (moneytreeme on eBay) has a very good book and a very good video on the ABC's of grading currency."
But hey, thanks (still!) for helping a guy out! We need more people like you who want to help folks out!
Finally, the post I referred to, is unedited.
adrian
But, danglen's friend's note wasn't a Bank Note, right? Therein lies my foible. I didn't state my focus which was the subject note.
Your post was very insightful and you obviously know what you are talking about. My knowledge about NBNs could fit into a egg cup. It's my privilege to have you comment in this thread. Do you know a NBN fellow named Mr. Melamed?
With regard to touching and feeling notes - if they're my notes, I don't want people touching and feeling them. It's just that simple. When I ship them to a client, if they come back to me, i don't have to worry about sniffing, touching, feeling, new smudges or new damage. I, though, understand your desire to sniff and feel. But please, not my notes.
And as far as bleach goes - my underwear is bleached, on occasion. It doesn't smell like bleach because it is rinsed. Maybe that's getting a little too personal, but just because your sniffer doesn't smell bleach doesn't mean your note hasn't seen a little Chlorox. I try, at all times, to stay acquainted with reality.
I'm not commenting on eveything you said, please interpret that as simply a manifestation of my wrist pain and competing demands for my time.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins
If a note smells like bleach or feels pressed, it is much like a coin that has been overdipped. It's a sign of poor handling and serves as a warning flag. If a note (or a coin for that matter) is properly processed, no one will ever know the difference. This is the heart of the "conserving vs. cleaning" debate.
I have never had any trouble going up to a dealer's table and asking to inspect a note out of the holder. If the dealer doesn't know me, I'll usually add that I just washed my hands (which is something I always do before going onto a bourse floor). If a dealer says no, then there's no foul. I might not be as interested in the note though, and I definitely will be a lot more critical of anything I see.
Your statements tell me that you probably have never seen a bleached and pressed nasty note, or at least taken the time to figure out why your instincts are telling you not to walk, but run from a note.
And please don't interfere with my reality. It's apparent that our respective worlds aren't likely to meet in the near future. All things considered, both of us are probably missing something, but ignorance is bliss.
And yes, I had the pleasure of being able to view Mr. Melamed's extensive collection one day. It was quite an experience. Not a slab in the bunch.
Enjoy,
Charlie
"Have no fear, sniffing and feeling you isn't on my list"
You have an edit button, you might want to use it unless this is what you intended to say and I suspect that after a few minutes of consideration, you will conclude that it wasn't, unless, of course, I am a very bad judge of character, which I don't think I am, I think you might just be a premature leaper.
"Your statements tell me that you probably have never seen a bleached and pressed nasty note"
I've seen 'em, but I don't pick them up. Why would i want to? I deal in gems or better - i'm not into low grade currency. If I collected NBNs, I would definately not be into condition like i am. My rare books don't have to grade 65 or better.
"And please don't interfere with my reality."
I suspect that you were in a rush when you read my post - I only referred to my reality - I said nothing about yours. I don't have the time or inclination to interfere in other people's reality. That would be me being an activist. I'm an escapist, for the most part.
"All things considered, both of us are probably missing something"
I miss things all the time - on purpose. One has to be selective - I only have 70 years (or so) left. I bet you are over 55 years old. Am I right?
"And yes, I had the pleasure of being able to view Mr. Melamed's extensive collection one day. It was quite an experience. Not a slab in the bunch."
Yes, not a slab in the bunch. But an outstanding collection.
What do you collect?
adrian
You have an edit button, you might want to use it unless this is what you intended to say and I suspect that after a few minutes of consideration, you will conclude that it wasn't, unless, of course, I am a very bad judge of character, which I don't think I am, I think you might just be a premature leaper.
When I type a post, I read and re-read it. I delete more often than I post. In this particular instance, if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't flatter yourself.
I miss things all the time - on purpose. One has to be selective - I only have 70 years (or so) left. I bet you are over 55 years old. Am I right?
It's too bad you miss things on purpose. There are a lot of things in the great big world that I wish I had more time to pay attention to, let alone have the luxury to ignore. And, no, I'm not over 55 years old. I'm actually quite a bit away from there.
What do you collect?
You know, I don't figure that really matters since I don't think we'll be doing business anytime soon.
Well... My character allotment on my rented keyboard is all used up. It has been relatively entertaining trolling with you.
Enjoy,
Charlie
If you care to know why I said what I did about the services, please pm me. It may be of help to you. I have nothing to prove to some other members of the forum.
Bustman
"You, Sir, are a most amusing person. Unless, of course, you're serious, in which case I think I will move out of Texas."
So you're a Texan. I'm serious. Where are you going? Hey, I was just kidding, I wasn't serious. Hey! Come back! I'm already missing you. Oh good, you scared me for a minute.
More seriously, you and I are probably kindred spirits. We both like paper (you, the old wrinkly stuff that's rare objectively and me the common stuff that has escaped 25 generatioins of children) and we're both really, really bad at flaming each other. Did you're parents ever tell you that you were adopted? What do you look like? I bet you're tan and buff. Dag! So you just buy currency and work out! Cool!
But the problem is, no one else even wants to comment on our posts, they're that boring. You're gonna have to pick up the pace because I won't be able to, I'm too tired (and it shows) so I'm counting on you to provide us with some entertainment. Now, flame me! Or take off your clothes and run around! Hey, stop that, are you nuts? I was kidding.
You also said:
"When I type a post, I read and re-read it. (Why would you do that, no one knows who you really are?) I delete more often than I post. (That is too easy, back to you.) In this particular instance, if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't flatter yourself."
That was a joke? Maybe I'm just too tired. I thought it was a mistake. Please accept my apologies. As far as flattering myself, I'm a personal injury lawyer from New Jersey who likes snakes. Flatter myself? Where have you been lately?
I laugh at most anything but I didn't find your comment amusing ("sniffing and feeling you...") or even insulting or really anything, again, I thought is was a mistake. Now if your name was Laurie and you said "sniffing and feeling you...", I would have felt something. I think I would have.
But that's unfortunage because, I'd rather feel bad, than not feel anything at all. Losing weight for you though, will be easy - just give up your current job and go into comedy. Sorry, that seems like a low blow? Was that a low blow? Or just plain bad? Yeah, you're right, just bad. I'll erase it. Like I said, I'm tired. Hey, you're not falling asleep are you? WAKE UP!
I understand your desire to not share what you collect. My predicition is that you collect Texas Nationals. I bet your collection is worth well over one million dollars and you don't want to reveal anything about yourself because you are very security conscious. I understand. Don't sweat it.
"It has been relatively entertaining trolling with you."
Good. Relatively, though? C'mon man. You're being nice. That's not generally permitted. You're sending me mixed messages. But that's ok, life is sometimes very, very confusing. Now, lay down, close your eyes and just think about a very peaceful place where the water is calm and the birds are singing softly and the sun is setting .....and OH MY GOD THERE IS A BEAR RIGHT BEHIND ...AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!
Sorry, about that. Are you OK? You don't look so good. I was just playing with you. Please don't be mad at me. All my friends have gone away and you're the last one. There's no way you're leaving. I know where you live and I'm headed over there right now. Do you like guns? Wait a minute, your a Texan. You love guns! Me too! See ya' in a minute. Just kidding! That'll probably get me kicked outta here. I gotta go now, bye. Oh, no. Not you guys again. Hey, let go of me. Take that off of me. You're putting it on too tight again...STOP IT! STOP! OR I'LL SAY STOP AGAIN!
ok, i'M DOnE
Good Bye!
adrian
I'm gone too.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I enjoy Groening's earlier efforts.
Edited to add:
Akbar: I love you, but I hate you.
Jeff: I feel exactly the opposite about you.
K S
LATER!
adrian
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
Bustman - do you remember writing this yesterday:
"When I get home from "school", I will either reply to this thread or start and new one on the topic of currency grading services and what I based my opinion on. As for you Anaconda, try to behave. As a man who sells and BUYS a lot of graded curency you may find what I have to say interesting. If not, I am sure there are other members of the forum who will.
Bustman
Well, where is it?
adrian
I think the forum has probably had enough of this banter ( as well as your personal, non-numismatic attacks on anyone who dares to confront you), so anything further you have to say to me...... send to me via email.......you have my address. I will not use the forum for this type of BS. I came here to learn and share what I know numismatics, not to fight with the playground trouble maker.
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."