I have to say, the pendelum has swung in NGC's favor.
truthteller
Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
Over the last several weeks, I have talked to several well know collectors and dealers. They have informed me that their submissions to PCGS has severely declined. The also have informed me that their die hard PCGS loyalties have now shifted to NGC and they have been propagating their high opinions of NGC by word of mouth and my email. Many of you have stated your concerns over the grading standards of PCGS over the last year. I believe those concerns have fallen on deaf ears. Until now. Several major people in the business have either dropped submissions altogether to PCGS or have curtailed their submissions as a form of protest. From what I understand, PCGS has taken note, but has yet to act. In addition, the customer service at NGC has become known throughout the industry as top rated. Has it come to pass that NGC has slain the PCGS giant? It may appear so. Comments?
TRUTH
TRUTH
0
Comments
<< <i>Several major people in the business have either dropped submissions altogether to PCGS or have curtailed their submissions as a form of protest. >>
Can you name them since they are letting it be known by word of mouth? Thanks.
Cameron Kiefer
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
I do not believe it would be appropriate for PCGS insiders to discuss specifics regarding quantity of submissions vis a vis NGC since there are certain rules of disclosure a public reporting corporation can make about sales (submissions) without running afoul of SEC / US Treasury regulations. I realize you did not suggest such "discussion" but we need to be careful about how close we get to the line without crossing it when "fodders" are involved.
If we attempt to discuss grading grading, customer service issues and industry competition all in one Q&A forum then we all will end up with whiplash, watching the volley matches and end up accomplishing nothing. We need to stay focused on one area at a time within each forum which will then start to accomplish everything.
Yes, there are real issues to be accomplished. But we need to crawl before we walk and we need to build a positive dialogue and KEEP it constructive and eventually we will all find real solutions to real PCGS concerns.
<< <i>...since there are certain rules of disclosure a public reporting corporation can make about sales (submissions) without running afoul of SEC / US Treasury regulations >>
Yeah, according to SEC rules they must submit financial statement every quarter. That statement will include the sales (submissions, plus other stuff) ie revenue. I'm not sure what you mean, Oreville.
jom
Ogden
Your statments are exactly why I keep using PCGS. 9 times out of 10 when I see a coin that I feel is solid for the grade, it is in a PCGS Holder. In the case of NGC, I would say that percentage drops to 6 out of 10 times at best. Sure, they may make you "feel better" by giving your coin "the right grade", but I think the market thinks otherwise.
I would suspect that some dealers ARE indeed using NGC more, especially for modern bullion type coins where they can hope to get a 70 grade and make more money.
I have had my share of "disappointments" with submissions to PCGS, especially when I first started using them. I tried to learn from these experiences, and in 95% of the cases I was able to determine why it came back the way it did, even if it took a phone call to Rick or someone at PCGS. I learned how to grade much better myself, and pre-screen the coins better.
Greg
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Like mdwoods said Greg, you said it all right there.
A grading services most likely isn't doing its job right when all the submitters to that service seem to be happy with the grades they get!
JJacks
Bottom lines is simple: PCGS and NGC are like COKE and PEPSI, they will continue to dominate
because they taste the best, its just a question which restauraunt you are in and what coin you
are looking at. Customer service is good at both, both grade well. end of story.
Brian
is it possible that the alleged decrease in pcgs submissions is because submissions are down across the board?
K S
I have just sent my first batch into NGC to give them a try, but to be honest, the only coins I sent are the ones that I didn't feel would get the grade that I wanted from PCGS, they are just not THAT nice. So it's not really gonna be a fair comparison because I am expecting a grade that I wouldn't expect from PCGS, but at least it will give me a feel for what all you guys rave on NGC about.
I don't think PCGS is regulated at all by the Treasury Department. The SEC (from direct personal knowledge) regulates corporate disclosure for publicly traded companies. I would doubt that anything we would ask or say would trigger an SEC reg but, generally, SEC regs require disclosure not secrecy.
I would venture to say that it's no wonder PCGS coins tend to command a premium over other holdered coins because many of the coins are actually of a higher quality(grade) than the holder indicates. If NGC did the same thing(undergrade) their coins would also command a premium over the grade on the holder.
Seems to me that now, more than ever, the phrase "buy the coin and not the holder" rings true.
<< <i>A grading services most likely isn't doing its job right when all the submitters to that service seem to be happy with the grades they get! >>
Well said
Ogden,
<< <i>When I crack out the coins from PCGS and send them to other services it seems like they are graded properly. mostly higher, some the same. It just seems to me that PCGS is mad at somebody and many of us our paying for it, literally! NGC here I come!!! I just joined last week. >>
Please read what you just said....
<< <i>When I crack out the coins from PCGS and send them to other services >>
They grade
<< <i>mostly higher, some the same. >>
I guess from a dealer/submitters point of view sending your coins to NGC to get the higher grade in hopes of higher selling prices MIGHT sound good although most NGC graded coins sell at a discount to PCGS graded coins. BUT, based on your statement, as a collector which grading service coins would the smart collector buy?
wingedliberty,
Right on target. All the PCGS/NGC $hit is really getting old.
truthteller,
Who are these mystery well know collectors/dealers? If they are openly spouting this then their should not be a problem with you quoting them. You coming here making statements like this and not willing to support them with proof does not say anything to me other that you may have a hidden agenda.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I love these threads. I always wonder how many of the people that respond actually submit coins to any service in any quantity. When you read other threads by the same members, you get the feeling they submit none (or so few they would have no idea what really goes on), but they always know exactly how everything works.
I often wonder if the people who do not care that PCGS has no customer service and really does not care about the customer have the same feelings when they do other things in life. You know, get a fly in your soup, just flip it off and not worry about it.
<< <i>I often wonder if the people who do not care that PCGS has no customer service and really does not care about the customer >>
I often wonder how some people feel so comfortable making false generalized blanket statements like this without realizing, knowing, or caring that they might be putting their credibility on the line.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Yes I do submit coins and have no complaints about the service.
My apologies, I misread your post. (if the people who)
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>This was the trend, but now NGC has tightened up. The trends will start to change again. >>
Oh, oh. I see potentially two scenerios happening:
1- NGC is ridiculed, just like PCGS was for "not being consistent" and for changing the way the grade, (ie: 'tightening up').
2- NGC is ridiculed for trying to play 'catch up' with PCGS- PCGS having led the charge for raising the grading standards.
Either way, it's not pretty.
peacockcoins
I personally only submit 200-400 coins per year to PCGS. I have had a couple of issues that were all resolved in a very timely mannner, so I guess I can't address the Customer Service "problem". I do know that if I have ever needed to, Rick Montgomery was just a phone call away.
The issue that means the most to me is if I feel that a particular service is grading for the consumer, the collector, not for the submitter. From looking at the NGC Pop reports, I find it hard to believe that this is the case. Their grading of moderns is, in my opinion, ludicrous. I also find that they typically grade Morgan Dollars at least a point higher than what I feel is correct. I guess i find that my grading standards and those employed by PCGS are better in synch.
I can't seem to be able to find the section on the NGC pop report for alot of the modern coins, although I see a fair number of them at shows and on eBay. I have even bought some to use as comparisons. I know that this is hardly scientific, but it has indicated to me that something is amiss. one thing I can point out with certainty, is how NGC grades Modern Commems. the list below is from their POP report, or census as they call it.
This shows how they have graded the 2002 West Point Commem. I think the numbers are way out of wack. I know the table will not fit properly, but look at the MS coin: 19 in 68, 662 in 69 and 575 in 70. For the PF, 26 in 68, 1522 in 69 and 1201 in 70. Hey, I have looked at HUNDREDS of these coins raw and slabbed, and the Mint didn't make 'em THAT good!
Year/ Mint Description Variety Desig Total Graded PrAG G VG F VF 40 45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
2002 W WEST POINT MODERN COMMEMORATIVES MS 1256 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 19 662 575
2002 W WEST POINT MODERN COMMEMORATIVES PFUC 2753 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3 26 1522 1201
Hidden agenda is the furthest from my mind. I get no financial gain or satisfaction, just acknowleging what is happening in the coin business. As for my contacts, it is stupid of some forum people to request me to disclose them. Yes, these are people who do speak out at shows, at auctions, just not to you. If you have other previous information, then you would knowand verify. That's why we are on the forum. Since this post, I have had others PM me of their situation. I tend to 'know' a bit more than most. However, if you don't want this information posted, PM me and I will make sure YOU will never hear it. If you don't like my opinion, then scroll down to the next thread. DAMN! These whiners are really irritating, obnoxious and getting downright petty.
TRUTH
<< <i>DAMN! These whiners are really irritating, obnoxious and getting downright petty. >>
If that is how you see me so be it BUT, this kind of post reminds me of someone telling me "I know these very important brokers ect ect ect who are saying XXXX stock is about to sky rocket". Well I don't believe those stories either and very seldom regret it.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
That was my point. Merely reporting PCGS monthly submissions is one thing. Commenting and comparing to the competition's submissions and the "why and why not" is now a different ballgame. This involves much more and I believe is covered under the SEC regulations.
Being PCGS is an enviable position. They just sit back, enjoy their reputation and decide how much NGC they are going to cross for the month. But make no mistake...NGC leads the way on the grades!
I think that PCGS was at its loosest in the early 90s. Wasn't that right around the time that they bought back 1000s of their generic dollars and Walkers due to an outcry from some of their dealers and major PCGS marketmakers who were complaining that they were getting stuck with really awful coins via their sight-unseen bids on ANE?
Dragon
in the opposite direction. Once PCGS discovers it has ears to listen to collectors with, a brain to think with
and eyes to see what the competition has accomplished, then all will be better in Coinville. Bear
Camelot
The major dealers Truth speaks of are not in this for the fun of it, or to run non-profit organizations. This is their business and their living. They have no "day jobs". When they go into major auctions and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on very "PQ" material, they want to be assured that the super "PQ" MS65 (that has a decent shot to grade MS66 today) doesn't now get regraded MS64 (and why should it). These dealers Truth speaks of now believe they will make more money handling NGC product. THEY BELIEVE NGC is grading more consistently, they understand the NGC "line" and that is the key to this business. Both collectors and dealers want to know that wherever a line is drawn that line is the line. Not, that line is the line for two coin shows and then for the next 4 coin shows the line is somewhere else. How can collectors or dealers operate without a consistent line?
NGC product is definately on the move. Collectors are seeking it. I am aware of record prices for NGC product recently, whether it be a silver Wash quarter, a silver Roosevelt Dime, or a 19th century rarity. Many dealers (who make a living at this) are turning to NGC to deliver a consistent product and a product the collecting public is asking for. If a PCGS-MS67 coin sells for $100 and a PCGS-MS68 coin sells for say $7000, I have recently seem collectors happy to pay $3500 for the NGC-MS68 coin, even if it is not possible to get the coin into a PCGS-MS68 holder. And, the market can handle a $100, $3500 and $7000 product just fine I believe. I believe dealers are seeing that the "line" on each grade is discernible at NGC and it is making strong business sense to deliver the NGC product to collectors who are asking for it. I really do believe this is a turning point in the "value added" market for the major grading companies.
Wondercoin.
This is utter nonsense. SEC disclosure is about PCGS's OWN financial situation. The SEC regs generally say that PCGS cannot release false or misleading information about PCGS's books or projections. If PCGS wants to advertise that it is "number 1" or bigger than NGC, I am sure the SEC would not be concerned.
I like wingedleberty's analogy here. What's Pepsi's catchy tune these days or Coke's. I know ANACS certifies, The Collecter Coins. What is NGC or PCGS advertising these days?
Is it NGC's turn to see a profit gain in their stock for their investors.
Is this that fine (inconsistent) line Wondercoin was referring to.
I think now, would be an appropriate time to look back into
The Crystal Ball and see what the future may hold.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Eye appeal is also the major consideration is assembling the IHC's, that and varieties. 90% of my purchases have been in PCGS holders. Recently NGC has in my opinion started to grade them more accurately, but I still make sure that they would cross. I can say this because I know what a PCGS 64 red looks like having looked at hundreds of them. The nice part about buying them in NGC holders is that as a rule, except for the low pop coins they sell at a small discount. Am I going to send them in to cross, don't know yet. I can sit here with them and watch what happens in the future to the two grading services. My hope is that PCGS continues to maintain it's reputation in the market and that NGC catches up in this series.
Whether you vociferously defend PCGS or NGC everytime a thread comes up, remember one thing: we need strong competition in this industry to protect our interests as collectors, so from that point of view I hope that they both continue to improve where they are weak and addresses issues put out there by both dealers and consumers.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I think the pendelum has swung in NGC's favor!
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Okay, maybe it's time. Maybe the competition will be beneficial. Maybe you can consider why it was not in their favor before.
NGC's grading and customer service was not always what it may be now.
Just about everyone needs a wake-up call, every now and again.
Isn't it really just the same ol' vicious cycle coming around and around - the market is there and NGC is after its piece of it; everybody is. Just looks like "jumping on the bandwagon" mentality to me. For me, as a pure collector, I don't need to get caught up in the market-share war, and that is what it really is. It is better for me keep my eyes and ears open, shop wisely, keep my submission to a minimum and let things work themselves out.
All the angst is the result of chasing numbers, be it for the Registry or for the dollar.
For the collector, it is a Coke v. Pepsi argument.
Here's a question - NGC's in favor and PCGS makes appropriate adjustments and continues to command the premium(s) it has, will not the same debate recur with the names changed? What will you do then, swing back to PCGS? Is it really beneficial to you as a collector to get caught up in, what is essentially marketing strategies?
A point I really wanted to make before I got drawn into the PCGS versus NGC thing is: Might some of you consider that the perceived problem with PCGS customer service just might be your approach? I am NOT directing this at any one specific person, but several people have posted there "scenario" in the forum, and many times I have noticed that some of you EXPECT Rick to personally handle every problem you encounter. I don't like this grade so I'm going to go over everyone else's head and have Rick resolve it. The customer service rep pissed me off so I going to call/email Rick. Believe it or not, there are other people there who can and will help you, and only if they don't, it is then appropriate to address your complaint further. Don't get me wrong, I like personal attention too, but, it isn't always proper to raise Cain to get your way. Sometimes, the "squeaky wheel " does not get oil - sometimes it just laid by the wayside.
<< <i>Might some of you consider that the perceived problem with PCGS customer service just might be your approach? >>
I suppose asking a question and expecting an answer is a little too much. What approach should you take to get an answer, or at least a response?
They should have a link on the website for problem resolution - sends an email directly to the right person in different problem categories.
al h.
"I can understand some motivation for wanting to submit to NGC, but why would anyone buy an NGC coin over a PCGS one in most instances when almost everyone here is acknowledging that PCGS is tighter. That would clearly mean that in most instances, obviously not all, you get a much better coin with the PCGS material".
I'm not going to get into an argument with you regarding the accuracy of your "when almost everyone here is acknowledging that PCGs is tighter". However, as a dealer who attends roughly 20 shows per year (at which I examine many thousands of both NGC and PCGS coins) as well as most major auctions, I can tell you that you don't "get a much better coin with the PCGS material". There are plenty of NGC coins that are noticeably nicer than PCGS ones of the same grade (and vice-versa) and I'm confident that most major dealers would agree. I'm not taking sides, just reiterating "buy the coin" not the holder, advice that can't be repeated too often, apparently.
Human Nature:
We want to feel like we are getting a bargain. It's easier to sell a coin at a discount to "list price" than to sell at a significant premium.
The power of the holder. Even tho it shouldn't, the number on the holder is a powerful thing. If you could get exactly the same coin in two different grade holders, show them back to back (not side by side) and ask people which one they want for the same price, I suspect everyone would take the higher graded coin because they think it looks better (even tho it's exactly the same coin).
Mark, I agree with you completely. PCGS grades some coins very harshly(undergrades) and some coins very loosely(overgrades-yes overgrades). The problem is, you never know which way they're going to go when you submit them. NGC seems to be more consistant with their grades, at least the last couple of years. So, once you've learned "how" they grade your coins(whatever series you delve in), you will have much fewer bad surprises when you get them back. As stated before, PCGS is all over the place with the grades they assign. I honestly believe you would have a better chance in a crap shoot. Just my opinion but based on recent(past couple of years) experience. Heck, even with ANACS you have a better idea of what grade you are going to get.
My head hurts.