Well, I got screwed on the 1825 half I bought.

Russ

The coin was originally discussed here.

I got it in today, and either the seller manipulated the scan or cleaned the coin since he took the pics. And, I mean CLEANED.

Here are the original auctions scans:



Large scans here:

Original obverse.

Original reverse.

Here is what the coin actually looks like:



Large scans here:

Actual obverse.

Actual reverse.

I should have known better since he had a no return policy. Live and learn. I sent him a demand for refund eMail anyway, so I'll see how he reacts.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs

Yeah, this is what I figured it would look when you first posted it. It looks much like my mom's except my mom's has more detail.

Placid

Wow! What a difference.
I don't know the top pictures seems to have some darker areas on it that I don't see in the bottom pictures.
Maybe the seller did clean it up. Probably thought you wouldn't wan't a dirty looking coin

When I look at the reverse on the original. The arrows look like they go to the left of the claw some.On the new picture I can't even make them out.
Even the dark "spot" in the shield is gone.

FC57Coins

Sorry to hear about that Russ - looks like the same coin under a totally different light - Tell us who the scum is so that we don't fall prey as well.

Regards,

Frank

Russ

Frank,

I'll wait on revealing the seller until I find out how he responds. If he refuses to make good, you guys aren't the only ones that will hear about it.

Russ, NCNE

darktone

I have had coin picture taken with my digital camera show up as having a gold tone when they are white coins in person but I really wonder if this is the same coin ? mike

lordmarcovan

Sorry to hear that. But maybe it will retone. It will never be naturally toned, but the EF45 1827 I cleaned as a dumb kid, back in 1978, has retoned beautifully, with much more color than it had originally. OK, so it's second toning, but it took a quarter of a century to acquire. In a year or two, yours can look much nicer. Just leave it on a shelf in the open, if you don't have cats or kids to mess with it. Turn it over every week or two. Depending on your environment, it may retone naturally. If that is too slow for you, there is always the old paper envelope method.

Many of these were cleaned over time. I would speculate that few out there are totally original.
Even cleaned, I don't hate yours. I have never met a Bust Half I hated.

Lesson learned: don't buy from a seller with no return policy unless you are prepared for the results. But who was to know, with those pics? Sorry you got burned. Hopefully you're not out by too much money.

I don't think the seller is all guilty, necessarily. Maybe dishonest, maybe not. I'd give 'im the benefit of the doubt. The red background on his picture gave the coin that weird pinkish color I mentioned in the original thread. The coin may have already been cleaned when he scanned it; frequently it is impossible (for me, anyway) to judge, from a picture alone. I wouldn't neg him, if this was an eBay transaction. If you are unhappy, maybe a neutral is in order, though.

RotatedRainbows

I had a feeling it was cleaned, he must have toned down the scanner/camera to hide as many problems as possible. There is no dobt that it is the same coin as it has the tone spot on her cap above B and the small black dot on the lower cheek as well as the field mark behind liberty's head across from star 12.

Russ

<< <i>but I really wonder if this is the same coin ? >>



Mike,

When I first pulled it from the envelope, my first impression was that it wasn't. But, there are several diagnostics that indicate it is. The hole in her cheek, the heavier toning in the feathers/olive branch area that didn't clean off as well, the dark toning in the "E" that didn't clean out, and a few others that don't show well in the pics.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

Oh, and the coin is very recently cleaned. The second set of pics don't even show how white it is.

Russ, NCNE

shirohniichan

There's a new seller on eBay who responded to my query about his return policy as follows: "Sorry I don't do that. I try to take the best pics I can."

The photos weren't very good. He's probably wondering why no on bid on his coins.

Should I send him a helpful tip (to wit, that honoring a reasonable retunr policy will increase his sales of raw coins)?

Bear

Russ - See what happens when you deviate from Pr Kennedy Half Dollars? Evil things, that's what happens.

Russ

Oh, and here's the seller's description in it's entirety (emphasis added):



<< <i>THIS IS A VERY FINE ORIGINAL UNCLEANED BEAUTY. MINT LUST AND NO DARK STUFF. IT ACTUALLY CAME OUT OF AN ANACS HOLDER AND HAS BEEN IN MY ALBUM FOR A LONG TIME. HARD TO SCAN SHINNY COINS. PLEASE SEE SCAN FOR DETAILS. >>



Uncleaned, my ass.

Russ, NCNE

kranky

If the guy is a regular ebay seller, maybe he'll refund you anyway. Can't hurt to ask!



<< <i>Uncleaned, my ass. >>


Gee, out of context that doesn't sound very good, does it?

MadMarty

For once you don't suck, but the seller sure does!!!

DHeath

Sorry Russ, I liked the coin in the first scan. Maybe you'll get refunded.

coynclecter

It's an obvious dip job. The black dot on the cheek and the dark "E" shop it as the same coin. He dipped it. Something I never do with a circulated coin. It's too unnatural looking. Probably decided it didn't come out well so he sold it.


Coyn

Gilbert

It does seem to coincidental for two coins to have that same hole/pit on the cheek, but I'm not so sure they are the same coin. The original seems to have more detail in the hair, and the forelock seems to penetrate the Liberty band as well, and the details in the neck of the eagle also seem to be different. It could very well be the image, but ...

Good luck on the refund request.

Russ

Gilbert,

It's the same coin. It has all of the same indicators as the original, except for the scrub job. If it weren't, though, that would make the misreresentation that much more egregious.

Russ, NCNE

PhillyJoe

The original picture is a coin anyone would treasure, the second set is the coin from hell. There's no denying the small hole on the chin, but the only thing these "two" coins have in common is the date.
Good luck with your efforts to straighten this out.

Joe

jtryka

Well, when the seller uses the words "uncleanned" and "shinny" in the same description, one of them can't be true, and on a bust half, it's probably the former that turns out to be the lie. Sorry for your loss, and I hope the seller does right by you.

presleyh

Well you obviously didnt get what you thought you were going to get. hope it wasnt a bunch of money. i think this is a good example of how a picture is worth a thousand words. Consider this: as an unbiased member of the jury i really cant tell which picture more acurately represents this coin. Knowing your abilities to photo coins and with the coin now in your hands, i totally agree with you, Russ. But i think we can all learn a little from your experience. 1. It is impossible to value a coin from looking at a picture on ebay. I think anyone with a good camera and imaging enhancement capabilities will change the image to fit their individual "best" view of their item.
This in itself is expected of a seller on ebay. If they don't do that we give them bad marks for crappy pictures. 2. If there is a no refund policy take a step back and wonder why. Those are rare ebay sellers who won't stand behind their item and only they know why. My point is that the seller isnt necessarily dishonest with his picture of the coin. From that point on with the written description and refund policy, he's all down hill. I hope you get your money back.

PhillyJoe

Two points to be made here:

1. The seller offered it as a "shinny" coin, not shiny. What's a shinny?

2. Don't buy anything from Ogden, Utah until Russ gets his money back.

Joe

gemseeker

Maybe he rubbed it against his shin to get the shine back to it?

I have been to Ogden Utah several times. It is a nice quiet city. It's not too far from where the two major transcontinental railroads joined to connect the Far West to the rest of the US.

goose3

russ,
can you post a link to the original auction?

I assume you are waiting on the seller's response before you leave him some feedback?

Russ

Goose3,

On both counts, I'm waiting to hear his response. If he decides to do the right thing, then I'll just move on and chalk it up to continuing education.

If he chooses not to do the right thing, he will have a problem on his hands.

Russ, NCNE

braddick

Russ, Worse case (if you can't resolve this with the seller) I'd be interested in buying it.
I'm putting together a raw set and don't mind if a few of them have problems.

Russ

Pat,

Thank you for the offer, but I may need it to list on eBay with a high reserve so it never sells, and gets re-listed time after time. If you get my drift.

Russ, NCNE

jtryka

Russ, remind me never to tick you off.

braddick

<< <i>Pat, Thank you for the offer, but I may need it to list on eBay with a high reserve so it never sells, and gets re-listed time after time. If you get my drift. Russ, NCNE >>



Actually, I don't get that reference.
But then again, I just had sushi and my mind isn't working so well right now. . .

If you change your mind, let me know- I'll be a buyer anytime.

Russ

Pat,

The listing will have very a very detailed description of the origin of the coin, with all applicable scans and links.

Russ, NCNE

presleyh

braddick, i kinda think what russ means is if he puts something in his auction like "just bought this dog from xxxx and boy was i ripped by him since he sells cleaned coins as original mint luster and wont return the money to dissatisfied customers." It probably wont sell, but then again neither will xxxx 's other auctions.

danreller

Hi Russ,

I think they are two different coins. Compare the stars at 2:00. The upper 3 points don't look the same.

The star at 3:30 is different. In fact, if you study most all the stars they look dissimilar.

See star at 8:00. How do you polish a coin and the lower point grow longer?

And how would the inner toenail of the Eagle's Right ( left looking at the coin ) claw become more prominent after polishing?

If you keep looking closely, there are many areas that don't match.

I would like to know the dealer's name. No harm in revealing who it is.

Russ, I would certainly try to get my money back.

Dan

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Uncleaned, my ass. >>




<< <i>Gee, out of context that doesn't sound very good, does it? >>



ROTFLMAO, Kranky.

But neither does MINT LUST, when you get right down to it...

stujoe

Russ, that really stinks.I agree with Coyn that it looks dipped. Can you see any sign of abrasives too? It has that look about it also.

I have a hard time seeing how that auction picture could have been done after the dipping/cleaning. Maybe it was, but in all of the pictures I have taken in different lights, angles, white balances, backgrounds, etc I have never had pictures look that different. There are subtle color variations on the auction pictures that just don't seem to have any correlation in the pictures you took. That coupled with the No Return policy really makes me wonder about this seller.

braddick

Ok, hit me over the head with a dumbstick.
Got it!

Ten day auction...Featured.... Full, blazing details of the coin's 'complete' history.... Up close and personal SCANS showing every bit of its sparkling beauty...

I like it.

Clankeye

<< Uncleaned, my ass. >>


What? Are we back to Shiro's Yoda impression?

IrishMike

I can't tell if it's a lousy picture or he dipped it before he sent it to you, which would make no sense. Sorry Russ but there is some irony in all of this. Do you list in your auctions that you cleaned your Kennedies before you sent them in to be slabbed?

Russ

<< <i>I think they are two different coins. >>



danreller,

Trust me, it is the same coin. I have it physically here to compare to the original scan. You are looking at pictures that were taken with two different cameras, different lighting, different angles and different points in the coin's life. Photography can play all kinds of havoc with perception because of shadows, reflections, etc. The shot that I did is as close as possible to reality.



<< <i>Can you see any sign of abrasives too? >>



Stujoe,

Yep. Not glaringly obvious at first glance, but obvious under the loop.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

<< <i>Do you list in your auctions that you cleaned your Kennedies before you sent them in to be slabbed? >>



Mike,

Since I don't "clean" them, why would I?

Russ, NCNE

Bear

Irish Mike - There is a big difference between conserving a coin properly and dipping all of the life and luster and natural appearance from it. Also, circulated coins generally do not show up well after a carless dip. But then again, I'm only a little bear, what do I know.

MrLee

<< <i>The listing will have very a very detailed description of the origin of the coin, with all applicable scans and links. >>



I like that idea. I really like it, but what's eBay's policy on something like that? Are you allowed to trash another seller (even though it's rightly deserved) in an auction?

Russ

MrLee,

I wouldn't trash him. I would simply state the facts precisely, and let the viewer draw their own conclusions. But, it may not be necessary to do anything. I'm hopeful that the seller will make it right.

Russ, NCNE

IrishMike

Bear that wasn't my point, my point is if you dip a coin and sell it in an auction do you disclose the fact?

DHeath

Mike,

I think it's fair to say that the picture should represent the coin being sold.

MrLee

Sorry Russ. I shouldn't have said "you trash him." I know you would just be stating the truth. I too hope he's going to make it right.

IrishMike

DHeath obviously I agree with that, my point is still being missed so obviously I didn't make it very well. You dip a coin, it looks nice, the picture of it looks nice, a grading company slabs it, would you disclose when selling it that you cleaned it?

DHeath

Mike,

I wouldn't, but then I don't consider dipping a coin to remove haze the same as an abrasive cleaning. I guess one could argue that dipping is cleaning, but I would hazard a guess that 90% of all coins sold have been conserved in one way or another. Is a coin soaked in acetone cleaned, or soap and water. My feeling is that if dipping is undetectable, it is not detrimental. That is coincidentally the opinion of all of the grading services, and the ANA. I can't imagine dipping a classic coin with nice toning, but I think for modern dcams, no harm, no foul. IMHO

Russ

<< <i>would you disclose when selling it that you cleaned it? >>



Since dipping is not cleaning, why would you say you "cleaned" it. And no, nobody is missing your point; there is no point to miss.

Russ, NCNE

IrishMike

Dipping is not cleaning, what the heck is it Russ?

Nic

Dipping is not cleaning? K