Let me put it another way. If I sent this 1825 half in for grading, it would be in a body bag as soon as the grader opened the flip. It has minute parallel striations all over the coin.
I've never had a proof Kennedy body bagged for cleaning.
The coin was dipped, cleaned aka "not the same as the picture"
I think he bought it on ebay, dipped it and sent it off. When he didn't get the grade he wanted he posted the original picture. It may have come back in a BB.
A) Its the same coin
it was dipped which is cleaning (harsh cleaning is damaging, not all cleaning...but dipping is cleaning....period)
C) It was misrepresented by the picture
Stick with the Kennedys Russ, leave the beautiful bust coins for us classic clowns
Actually, you can chance the modern proofs but I never buy an older classic thats not in a PCGS or NGC, its just too risky.
LOL nice pixs, this was an ethical question, not meant to be a personal one. Next time any of you buy a coin that goes bad in a slab because it was cleaned, I mean dipped by a nonprofessional, you just might get my point.
Of course dipping is a form of cleaning! So is curating. But is has become acceptable in the market place if not harshly done in recent years. Ten years ago if you even talked about dipping coins to a collector you were in for trouble. mike
Now guys, dont make Russ angre. He has been known to pack heat, or was that Heet. In any event , he could have caught a case of distemper from a dog or somthing, that makes him want to growl and bark.
Your question made me refer back to "The Conservation of Coins", a guide published by the PNG, ICG, NGC, PCGS, ICTA and ANA. In it, they say the following; "A coin which has been lightly cleaned in a manner that is consistent with proper conservation techniques will not only remain certifiable but may even become more desireable by virtue of its enhanced appearance." and "It is only the harsh and unskilled cleaning of coins that makes them unappealing". I think technically it's fair to call dipping "cleaning", but in truth what I hope in the auctions I host or buy from is that a coin's condition is represented properly. By that, I mean that the appearance of the coin is not misdescribed. I don't worry if a coin has been dipped if neither I or the professional graders can detect it (a requisite in PCGS's grading standard for MS66 or better). I do however expect a proper description of hairlines, scratches, gouges, poor luster, wear, etc. If I objected to buying a modern that had been properly dipped, I guess I would be sure to notify anyone who purchased a coin from me that had been dipped prior to slabbing, but it simply isn't a factor to me.
BTW - Can't PM from home, but I agree 100%.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
jtryka- I just started writng another post about cleaning coins and I saw your post and also decided this has been discussed way too many times so I hit the cancel button. mike
I tend to agree with Irish Mike. Dipping is cleaning and you sure know it when a coin "turns" in the slab. I don't want to start the SS America curating debate all over. I just think IM's opinions are due alot more respect than he got. What he wrote made sense- even if you don't agree with it.
DAMMMMNNNNN RUSS that is hideous, please cover it! I am kidding, sorry you were dissappointed. Scans do that to cleaned silver. Underneath there still exists dirt, but to the eye it looks like shiny silver. When Scanned the scanner picks up that dirt and gives it an overall grey or brown look.
Russ not all is lost...you could put it on your kid's bike to use as a powerful reflector. Your kid would be absolutely safe while riding his bike at night!
Tyler
Oh I had to add an edited post. Bust halves for their age should be nearly black if wholly original. Retoned coins can be nice, if not hairlined. Here is what I look for in Bust halves for coloring.
damn. looks like it got a high-speed polishing. a grinder perhaps? maybe it's just a blast white 1825. i mean it could have been stored in an atmosphere-free environment for the past 175 years. maybe it was kept on the moon.
Russ, Sorry to hear of your negative experience. I just hope it doesn't discourage you from delving into the Classics. I have had simiular experiences when I first started collecting Bust Halves and finally got it through my Hard Head, that if it is "Raw" and on eBay, it is more than likely a problem coin. Let me qualify this opinion by stating I am refering to higher grade coins of XF and better. There is a very valid reason Bust Halves graded by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS bring a premium over "Raw" coins. Jim
Russ, I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. I do believe the coin was definitely misrepresented, as he said it was not cleaned. I'd give him a negative, too, if he doesn't make it right by you.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Some of the old time dealers in this area have some delightful unslabbed bust halves, ranging in grade from VF-AU. They are delightful coin. In my opinion they have always been underappreciated and underpriced. I will not buy raw online again unless I know the seller.
<< <i>that if it is "Raw" and on eBay, it is more than likely a problem coin. Let me qualify this opinion by stating I am refering to higher grade coins of XF and better. There is a very valid reason Bust Halves graded by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS bring a premium over "Raw" coins. >>
Praise be, another has seen the light. How many more souls (and dollars) will be lost under ye all hear and believe in the word!!!
Comments
<< <i>Dipping is not cleaning, what the heck is it Russ? >>
Refer to Don's post above.
Russ, NCNE
Camelot
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I've never had a proof Kennedy body bagged for cleaning.
Russ, NCNE
If Russ cleans the coins he auctions off, he does a really lousy job of it. I have the proof.
Clark
I think he bought it on ebay, dipped it and sent it off. When he didn't get the grade he wanted he posted the original picture. It may have come back in a BB.
A) Its the same coin
C) It was misrepresented by the picture
Stick with the Kennedys Russ, leave the beautiful bust coins for us classic clowns
Actually, you can chance the modern proofs but I never buy an older classic thats not in a PCGS or NGC, its just too risky.
Coyn
Camelot
Your question made me refer back to "The Conservation of Coins", a guide published by the PNG, ICG, NGC, PCGS, ICTA and ANA. In it, they say the following; "A coin which has been lightly cleaned in a manner that is consistent with proper conservation techniques will not only remain certifiable but may even become more desireable by virtue of its enhanced appearance." and "It is only the harsh and unskilled cleaning of coins that makes them unappealing". I think technically it's fair to call dipping "cleaning", but in truth what I hope in the auctions I host or buy from is that a coin's condition is represented properly. By that, I mean that the appearance of the coin is not misdescribed. I don't worry if a coin has been dipped if neither I or the professional graders can detect it (a requisite in PCGS's grading standard for MS66 or better). I do however expect a proper description of hairlines, scratches, gouges, poor luster, wear, etc. If I objected to buying a modern that had been properly dipped, I guess I would be sure to notify anyone who purchased a coin from me that had been dipped prior to slabbing, but it simply isn't a factor to me.
BTW - Can't PM from home, but I agree 100%.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Camelot
BTW, Russ... I do believe they're getting uglier.
Clark
See, I told you that JFK was getting uglier each day.
Russ, NCNE
Yes, the quarter has kicked the uglification into overdrive.
Clark
Russ not all is lost...you could put it on your kid's bike to use as a powerful reflector. Your kid would be absolutely safe while riding his bike at night!
Tyler
Oh I had to add an edited post. Bust halves for their age should be nearly black if wholly original. Retoned coins can be nice, if not hairlined. Here is what I look for in Bust halves for coloring.
1832
Russ, If you can't grow garden vegetables from the layers of original dirt and gunk on the coin, it probably isn't original.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Jim
myurl
K S
<< <i>I just hope it doesn't discourage you from delving into the Classics. >>
Not to worry. I ain't that easy to scare off.
Russ, NCNE
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>that if it is "Raw" and on eBay, it is more than likely a problem coin. Let me qualify this opinion by stating I am refering to higher grade coins of XF and better. There is a very valid reason Bust Halves graded by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS bring a premium over "Raw" coins. >>
Praise be, another has seen the light. How many more souls (and dollars) will be lost under ye all hear and believe in the word!!!
Coyn