Anyone have experience with PCGS grading their buffalo nickels VF-AU

Nickelchaser

Wanted to see how many people submit buffalos in grades VF-AU
range to PCGS and what they thought when they got them back.

I have had generally good results, but a few collector friends of mine
have been disappointed

Thanks

dorkkarl

my biggest single loss on a coin was a pcgs buff. 1926-S graded pcgs vf-35 in mid-90's. cracked it out to put it in my set. about 4 years later, decided to sell the set and sent they keys to anacs. 26-S came back net-grade FINE-12?!?!?! i lost near $400 on that one coin, and it was the event that finally knocked me out of the plastic market and taught me that one plastic co. is about as meaningless as any other.

K S

BigD5

All the services are sporadic with circulated Buff's, especially the early branch mint pieces. Trying to factor in strike issues (which were horrendous), and put a number on some of these coins can be a guess at best. Personally, I think anacs is the toughest on circ. buff's, than pcgs and then ngc. Really it's a crapshoot though. When you can find uncirculated examples lacking full horn detail, and a lot of collectors want full horn vf's, there's a problem. This is one area where you have to acquire a feel for the series, over a period of time, to grade the coins correctly and consistently, in my opinion.

UncleJoe

I collect buffalos (not slabbed and not MS).

dorkkarl, why the net grade?

BigD5, I agree with you that many issues have strike problems but I do not like what I see when it comes to grading. VF means full horn. If its not there, its not VF regardless of strike. I don't believe any dealer would pay the huge jump in price from F to VF for anything but a full horn coin. But I always see coins for sale and sometimes slabbed as VF with 3/4 or 90% horn.

If you are trying to put together a matched set, VF should be VF. Because some issues are so rare in that grade the price can jump from $20. to $400. from F to VF. I don't think allowances should be made in the grading because true VF's are rare. That's what makes them worth more.

Joe.

dorkkarl

anacs called the coin "vf detail, corroded, net f-12". the coin did have a dark grey powdery look to it, but i woudln't have called it "corrosion". i did crack it out again, took it to central states, had mike faraone look at it, and again, he said "net fine".

the sad thing is this, when i originally got the coin back from pcgs, i was surprised they even went as high as "vf-35". that is basically XF in my book, but the buffalo barely had any of the horn showing at all (25% tops). i always thought that "vf" meant full-horn! i know that branch mints have weak strikes, but still, even raw, i never would have thought that coin was borderline xf.

the 26-S wasn't the only overgrade either. as i recall, the 24-S was overraded, along w/ 24-D and 21-S. others seemed out of line as well, and that was from the suppsedly "conservative" years at pcgs. bottom line: i cracked the whole set back out and sold it in a dansco album raw, lost about $1000 overall. i gotta admit that the whole experience soured me on plastic forever. sorry to say it soured me on buff's to, even though i think it's one of the all-time great series.

& here's the kicker: most of those coins i bought were sight-unseen through advertiesements (this was pre-internet days). it was the era when sight-unseen plastic was being pushed big-time by dealers, and i got suckered hook, line and sinker. that;s why i am always on this forum , & pushing the 2 overriding ideas in how i collect today:

#1 buy the coin at YOUR grade. a certified grade is nothing more than someone else's opinion. when push comes to shove, the coin's gotta meet your standards. plastic means zilch.

#2 DO NOT buy coins sight-unseen, unless you have one heckuva return policy. i guarantee you'll do better in the long run to pay for the 200 mile drive (or whatever) to a major coin show and see coins in person, then waste $ on shipping coins back and forth that you don't want to keep.

that's my experience, take it w/ a grain of salt.

K S

UncleJoe

dorkkarl, I'm sorry to read about your bad experience with buffalos, they are a great series.

I agree with your two points with one little adjustment to your point one.

While the coin has to meet your grade make sure it also meets the same grade if you were to sell it to a dealer. (Is that even possible?) VF is full horn, so don't let anyone convince you that some issues don't require a full horn to be VF. Baloney!!! They would never buy it or pay VF prices without a full horn.

Joe.

jhar

Well said on your two collecting points Dorkkarl!!

BillJones

The sad fact is that PCGS and NGC consistently overgrade key date circulated coins. It’s a disgusting scandal, and should serve as a powerful warning to those who jump on the plastic bandwagon and say, “All you have to do is study certified coins, and you will learn how to grade.” From what I have seen EVERY circulated key date PCGS and NGC certified coin should be shipped back to the services for re-imbursements for overgrading. If they were sent back the companies would either go into bankruptcy or lie and say they are maintaining Brown & Dunn, Photograde or ANA grading standards. They haven’t. They have altered them for the benefit some group of people, perhaps their coin dealer stockholders.

koynekwest

You can blame Brown and Dunn for the full horn thing-using one simple design detail to determine a grade (I call it grading for simpletons.) However, it's a firmly entrenched thing and if it doesn't have a full horn it's very tough to get VF money for it-as unfair as I believe this to be.

BigD5

Uncle Joe, I have to disagree with your "vf is full horn" statement, for certain dates in the buffalo nickel series. One attribute on a coin, can't be responsible for the entire grade a coin is given. The buff's with mushy reverse strikes can, and will be given vf grades, if the obv. grades a full vf, and the rev. is mush. It's a striking characteristic that HAS to be taken into account when grading the entire coin. You have to know which coins in the series are subject to the terrible strikes that certain date buffalos were known to have. Would I grade a 1936 buff vf without a full horn? No. A 1919-s....yes, if the other attributes of the coin were worth vf status. I don't fully agree with how "easy" the services have become in letting some grades "slide", with regard to weakly struck examples, but I can see their point. You collect the series, so I KNOW you must have seen plenty of au quality coins lacking full horn detail from the early branch mints.

UncleJoe

Full horn is NOT grading for simpletons it is a STANDARD. This way everyone is supposed to be playing equally and fairly without all the hype and exceptions.

The very same dealer who would astound you with his knowledge of the strike qualities of the different issues (while true) would have a different story for you on the return trip. That's why there needs to be standards that both sides abide by.

I don't see why the grading standard has to be adjusted because there is a shortage of full horn for certain issues. Just adjust the pricing for the properly graded coin.

I agree with BillJones that I have seen too many rare dates get the benefit of generous grading. Grade coins per the standard and then let the pricing adjust to the proper grades.

Joe.

vam44

Given the huge differences in fn-vf grades, especially on the better dates, I can`t understand why there is not a column in the price guides for the coins that fall between, say a fn-15.There could be a price in between when the coin technically is very fine+, but lacks the all important full horn.

Another idea, how about separate prices for coins vf through ms-60 for buffs without full horn, like the full bands mercs or full head s.l.quarters.The horn is more crucial to the grade in the higher circulated grades,and,when uncirculated,and lacking full horn, the coin should grade no higher than ms-60.

I once owned a 1928 D buffalo graded ms-63 by NGC.It had half a horn.There are many from the old school of grading that refuse to grade a buff lacking the horn tip any higher than fn+.Some buffs were never struck with a full horn.There needs to be some middle ground.

UncleJoe

vam44, Great observation. I agree with you.

The importance of certain features are recognized in other series. Unfortunately, buffalos do not have such a designation at this time. So if you were to look at the reverse of several coins graded VF, one is amazed at the vast difference in quality. In my opinion they cannot carry the same grade and/or designation.

Joe.

BillJones

Strike problems are NOT what I was referring to when I wrote about the overgrading that is now standard procedure at the major certification services. BigD is right when he states that standards vary because of the strike problems for specific issues.

When Brown and Dunn wrote their book back in the 1950s coin grading was in many ways in its infancy. They are trying to provide a remedial guide that would get collectors started on the road to learning how to grade coins. The best way to do that was to note specific areas that typically showed wear on each design. These areas were usefully for well-struck coins, but the system did not work for poorly made and late die state pieces. As I remembered it even then Brown and Dunn had footnotes at the end of their grading descriptions in which they cited specific issues that often had strike anomalies.

If you want to get a taste of grading service overgrading, go shop for a 1916-D Mercury dime in VF. Every grading standard book that been written since B&D has stated that the fasces lines on the ax should be complete to qualify for the VF grade. The 1916-D Mercury dime is not a poorly struck issue. Those lines should be complete, but there’s few if any VF-20 or 30 slab graded dimes that will show that feature even to the level expected for a Fine-12 coin. If you go shopping for an 1877 Indian in circulated condition, you will find the same thing.

Grading is an art to the extent that poorly struck coins must be graded by surfaces as well as the remaining sharpness. But when standards have been established for key dates that do come well-struck, only a conscious effort to degrade those standards can explain reason for the current quality of the circulated coins that now appear in slabs.

The net result of this is that the “bid” prices for circulated key date coins are lower than one would expect. It’s not because the demand for these coins has gone down. In fact demand is very high for them. The reason is that you are getting a lot less coin for the given grade that the slab companies are placing on them.

UncleJoe

BillJones, for the most part you and I are in agreement.

The only thing I would like to point out is that not many would pay the same for a late/mushy die state than a better struck coin. So in my opinion the grading does work because the mushy coin should not receive the same grade as the better struck coin.

In buffalos I think it is even more important because the price range from F to VF is typically $40. to $400. I am not aware of any dealers that are expecting a mushy or non full horn speciman for VF prices. They may sell them that way but they won't buy them that way. Too many newbies buy "VF" buffalos only to find out later that they can only sell them as F. Of course they paid near VF prices thinking they were getting a bargain. That's what bothers me.

Joe.

dorkkarl

along these lines, if you think about , merc. dimes w/ "full bands" are stupid, because a coin can have a full middle band but be poorly struck elsewhere, or on the obv (due to worn dies, etc.) i thought the whole point of things like "full bell lines" and "full bands" was to indicate the coin was fully struck? i know what your saying about unc buff's having partial horns, though. maybe for buffaloes, there should be grades like "VF-20 PH" or "MS-63 PH" to indicate the partial horn. similar to the "FSB" designation on dimes, only showing a neg. rather than a pos. aspect.

doesnt ACG do something stupid like "FST" for fully-split tail?

K S

STOCKFORD

have sent into pcgs about 50 nickels. Satisfied for their grading except for rims nicks scratches and enviromental damage
I have sent in 1914-s xf40 1918-d xf45
1918/17-d pcgs vf35 thought for sure xf but bought at the right price
1924-s five of them three body bags two xf-40
1920-d au 55
1926-s vf 30,vf35 tough to get xf from them on that coin
and many other dates not key ones
mostly send in one or two at a time to get graded for my son
He loves buffalo nickels but can only afford circulated ones
we send them in to learn their grading on circulated buffalos
and my son will have a nice set all graded by pcgs
His goal complete set graded by pcgs xf

dorkkarl

petescorner, you got anything to add?

K S

Nickelchaser

Thanks everyone for the great and informative responses

I have done some comparisons with some of the coins I have PCGS slabbed and
some of the ones my friends have. For instance I have a 1919-D VF-20 with full horn,
its flat but the tip shows. I looked at my friends 1919-D VF-30 and it is not full horn, but the
slab doesn't mention this. Now could I get more money for mine if I were to sell it,
given that these two coins were sitting beside each other at a coin show?

I also have a PCI graded VF-20 1913-S type II that says 3/4 horn on the slab, I paid $185
I also have a VF-20 raw coin I bought from a trusted dealer with full horn shows for $175.
Now I'm not sure what to think since all else on these two coins looks the same except for the
horn. My question in this case would be are these the same grade?

UncleJoe

Nickelchaser, based on what you wrote if someone truly buys the coin and not the slab, I would say that your 19-D should sell for more.

As far as your 13-S it doesn't make sense that they are the same grade. In both cases, if you showed someone both coins (forget the slab) which one would be chosen. I would suggest the full horn 100% of the time.

By what STANDARD does a grading company call a coin with 3/4 horn (that's the definition of F) VF. At best call it VF/F.

While grading may be a matter of opinion, those opinions are in some way, shape or form supposed to be based on STANDARDS not subjective feelings.

IMHO. Joe.

paulheep

I have found PCGS to be pretty tough on getting MS grades, I had some surprize AU58's that I thought were slam dunk 63's. PCGS seems to be pretty liberal on the 21-s, 24-s & 26-s for giving VF20's with less than 1/2 horn. My best submission was an 21-s NGC F12 cracked out became a PCGS VF20. I have been, for the most part, pleased with the PCGS submission results.
Paul

BigD5

I agree with most everything here except the "full horn" is vf, absolute comments. I KNOW there is an excerpt in the ANA grading guide that lists specific dates that are weakly struck and more often DO NOT have full struck details than do. Of course, if the ANA guide, isn't the "standard" you are referring to, I'm in the wrong here. It is universally recognized that certain dates just aren't going to meet the "normal" criteria for certain grades.
Uncle Joe, YOUR standard may be "full horn" is vf for all issues, but that isn't how the market interprets certain dates. Please check your ANA Guide.
Overgraded key dates aside, as I agree with the comments concerning those particular coins, I'll stick with my interpretation of the "standard" for circ. buffalo nickels.

Nickelchaser

I have read the ANA standard and in the back of the book it does mention the years
of buffalo nickels that were typically weakly struck, but I have also read Lange's book
that mention's it's a guessing game to grade buffalo nickels without full horn. I mean
if you line up 10 1924-S unslabbed buffalo nickels on a table where all of the obverse's
are agreed upon to be VF. Some are weakly struck on the reverse (no full horn) and some
are good strikes with full horn but still VF. Now what do you have the same grade coin
right? So what's the difference just the price you would have to pay.

BigD5

Of course you would have to pay more. Try buying a ms/64 SLQ, and then a ms/64 SLQ with a full shield and head. You pay a premium for fully struck examples, no matter what the series. The coins can still grade the same.

UncleJoe

BigD5 we are getting closer to agreement.

I would agree with you about the full horn if it wasn't for the various price guides.

The problem I have when it comes to pricing is that most price guides will show a jump from $40. in F to $400. in VF. I would suggest that that pricing for VF is based on full horn. If it is not then I stand corrected and buyer beware. However if that is pricing for full horn, then I think the allowing of grading buffalos VF without full horn is a dangerous and possibly unethical practice.

Joe.

BigD5

I think we need to call in the "Interpretation Police" for this one. In my experience selling coins to dealers at shows, I haven't had any problems selling "the slab" when it comes to the perceived lax grading on branch mint buffalos. I guess if the market "accepts" the trend, it doesn't really matter what we actually "think" in regard to grading. I think the "full horn" situation we have been discussing has "moved on" a bit and the market trend has progressed to the point of non-full horn branch mint buffalo's being "accepted" in the market. Now, once we get into au and xf examples, that's a different story, but still, I've seen many examples of au details on the obv. of certain dates, and the typical "mush" reverses. How do you grade that one? It's still au, as the obv. will carry the grade on a coin (please see Kranky for an explanation on this ). Maybe it isn't. I guess it depends on the price of the coin.
It's always nice to have a sensible discussion on a potentially volatile subject on this board, without things getting crazy.

koynekwest

UncleJoe-
I have been a collector and student of this series for more than forty years. My observations follow.

A full horn is only a standard if you are SELLING the coin-if it doesn't have one, just TRY to get a VF price from most dealers. It usually won't happen in spite of the slabbed grade, and on raw coins-good luck-even if it has lustre. This often absent design feature should NEVER have been used as a grading criterion for this coin-in spite of the infancy of grading at the time-as I said, it's grading for simpletons. It has probably caused more grief between buyer and seller than any other grading issue in US numismatics. The footnotes you speak of are largely ingnored regardless of their accuracy. In my opinion, Buffalos are THE toughest of all 20th century coins to find with an acceptable strike and FULL strikes for many dates are simply unknown.

dorkkarl

all i can say, is "be careful". gotta agree that you better make sure your VF+ buff's got a full horn, or else your setting yourself up for a nasty surprise somewhere down the road.

K S

swissmiss45

A new beginner question-is there any value over "face" for buffalo nickels and standing liberty's with the dates worn off? Obviously the books don't list anything (I've checked) but you just don't find them in pocket change anymore so in that way they are rare. Or do you just punch a hole in them and make jewelry out of them? I saw that once.
swissmiss45

UncleJoe

Swissmiss45, the buffalos without dates will wholesale at about 12 cents each. People use acid on them to restore the date but that doesn't usually add much value though they do sell on eBay.

Joe.

Nickelchaser

Since originally posting this thread I have gone to the bank and brought home my
Fine and VF Buffalo collections. Following dorkkarl's comment I am fortunate enough
that every VF is full horn. The historically weak strike dates are VF-30's. Granted
the 21-s, 24-s and 26-s were handed down to me by my father who collected buffalos
during the 60's and 70's. Some other collectors I know say that you will not even find
the 21-s and 24-s in VF these days with full horn. If they do have full horn they
will sell as XF's. So this is another variable to add to the conversation. Historically weak
strike dates in VF with full horn could be passed off as XF's rather than just charging more money
and leave them graded at VF.

dorkkarl

good idea, nickelchase. sounds like your pop was an astute collector, not like a lot of guys these days who only know how to buy a piece of plastic with a grade stamped on it. what made me learn from my debacle was when i decided to take full responsibility for learning about coins, rather than always relying on the 3d party opinion. i'm happy for you, sounds like you got a heckuva nice buff set!

K S

BigD5

I agree that it sounds as if you have a nice circulated collection there. You have to grade the whole coin, not JUST the horn detail. If you have full horn branch mint buffalo's, that's all well and good, but if the obv. only has fine details, they may not grade vf. Examine the whole coin. They are a tricky bunch.

OnlyBuffalos

I think a good way to gain a perspective on how buffalos are being graded these days is to visit the free Heritage Auction archives. Enlarge their pictures. What one will mostly find are different grading standards for typically "weak" strike dates versus typically "full" strike dates.

Within a given grade especially XF and AU, for the typically "weak" strikes, a coin that has a fuller strike will realize a premium, often very large.

Unfortunately as was pointed out earlier, on auction sites such as eBay, many buyers are bidding based on market grade without taking into account the quality of the strike. And all too often the eBay photo does not allow one to assess the quality of the strike.

There are quite a few buffalo dates that I would be happy to pay over a thousand dollars for in XF condition if it had a full or nearly full strike. That same coin with a weak strike is worth considerably less to me. Part of the fun of collecting this series is the hunt for that very elusive strong strike. Sort of like the hunt many years ago for the white buffalo.

dorkkarl

this whole topic underscores the basic problem w/ buying slabs and not the coins. they are supposed to be market graded, right? which means that the grade outght to reflect the relative value to the market, right? so how coin 2 buff's w/ identical obv's, but 1 has a full-horn rev. and one has a partial, both grade VF-35, implying an equivalent value???

the point is that certification attempts something that is impossible, which is to generic-ize (new word) coins which are not generic. same prob. w/ bust coins, early copper, colonials, mass. silver, etc.

i have no prob. w/ "blast white" ike dollars and sacagaweenies and state quarters in slabs, cuz those really are generic. but buff's, especially considering the controversy? gimme a break.

K S

Nickelchaser

Lots of great comments, information and coin collecting expertise from the forum members,
glad I found this place.

its a pretty interesting story about how my father actually got so many buffalo nickels as explained
to me by him. His father back in the forties when buffalo nickels and may other coins were plentiful in
circulation would give him an allowance of 5 cents every week. He told me that he never deposited them
in the bank but put them in an old glass milk bottle. Then his father passed away which made his
commitment to keeping every last one of them even greater. So along with passing them down to me
I got the history which was pretty cool. So now whenever I get an old coin I look at it and think
about how many people spent, saved or collected this coin, or maybe even a president had this coin
in his pocket.
This is what makes coin collecting such a great hobby to me.