Why NCS Scares Me....

Clankeye

The new service NCS keeps coming up more and more in posts that I read. More often than not it is modern proof collectors talking about submitting coins for hazing or some such things that I will flatly state, I do not know about, have no experience in, or really follow.

But, more increasingly I have been reading posts where it is suggested a coin be sent in to NCS to be whitened up, have toning taken off, to be made more appealing to the buying public (or in fairness, to it's owner).

This is where I start getting nervous. There is a coin on display on the boards right now that it was suggested be sent to NCS to get rid of ugly toning, and I think some spotting was mentioned. It's a tab toned commemorative.

First, a question. I really don't know what NCS will or will not do. I want to be enlightened. If someone sends in a toned coin that they find unattractive and asks them to make it white, will they? Even if it is say, simply a tab toned commem? Is that their business? If they would not, I need to know. Because then my stated fears would be groundless.

My fear is this. It has been discussed in these threads that a lot of people new to numismatics do not appreciate toned coins. I believe that to be true. I do not believe it to have anything to do with IQ. But, in a lot of cases the appreciation comes later... or it doesn't. I fear people coming into collections of old sets of coins, and being told to send them to NCS and get that "ugly tarnish off." It's not just newcomers either, I think a lot of people would send in coins that are toned based purely on the "I think it's ugly" theory of coin collecting.

You know, anybody who owns a coin has the absolute right to do whatever they want to it. I can not argue that. Does NCS provide a legitimate service to numismatics? Yes. I believe they probably do. Is there a potential there for altering coins in ways that make me nervous? I think so. Unless somebody can tell me otherwise. I am geniunely asking.

kieferscoins

NCS Website

Cameron Kiefer

Clankeye

Thanks Cameron, if I had just thought to do a little digging perhaps I could have spared everybody the time.
Sincerely, Thanks.

Russ

Clankeye,

NCS can, and frequently does, refuse to conserve coins that are normal, natural toning. The process is two parts; evaluation, then conservation. If, during evaluation they determine that the coin would not benefit through conservation, that becomes the end of the process.

Russ, NCNE

kieferscoins

This is still a good thread. Others may have insight. We can't take for granted what is listed on their site, just like we don't believe everything on the PCGS site (price guide etc.)

Cameron Kiefer

Clankeye

And another thank you to Russ. I guess I can put the valium bottle away.

Edited to add response to Cameron: Ah, yes that is a good point too.

Placid

Well lets get some opinions. NCS canidate or not?

kieferscoins

No, leave it as it is.

Cameron Kiefer

Clankeye

Placid, if you're going to post that coin, show both the obverse and the reverse.

Or is it your point that you would send it in and have them leave the obverse alone?

I think everyone can guess my vote. Leave it. Don't send it. Period.

Placid

I would lets ncs decide if the should be left as is or if the coin would benifit from removing the toning. I picked the back because that is the side of the coin that bothered me the most due to what looks like black carbon spots forming.
NCS also claims they can stabalize a coins surface from further decay I have no idea how they do this but I would like to know.

mdwoods

I just sent about a dozen coins to NCS. Some were copper proofs. I included a note explaining that I did not mind the toning, but I was hoping that they could remove the black spots and dinginess. I have not heard back from them yet. I like colorful toning, but it is the black spots and gunk I think should be removed if it can be done without harming the coins finish. Mark.

dbldie55

I don't like toning, don't ever expect to (maybe my IQ is low although don't know how that is related). If they can remove the toning on one of my coins, I am all for it (actually have one to send it when I get around to it). If it will damage a coin, they will not do it. If you think that all toned coins should stay toned, then I guess many people are already hurting the market. I know my dealer has dipped coins that he cracked out of holders. The reason: He didn't want them BB'd when they were sent back in.

Clankeye

By stating that I don't believe IQ has anything to do with whether you appreciate toning or not, I had hoped to head off that particular branch of thinking. It was brought up in an earlier toning vs white thread, and I find it just distracts from the question at hand.

In this case, my concern that a company like NCS, could be used as a slaughter house for toned coins. Coins that are being judged unattractive by one customers opinion. The IQ thing is a non-issue.

littlewicher

What they can do, I can do myself.

dbldie55

With the prices toned coins bring vs. white, I am not sure who would pay the price, and then send the coin off to be "conserved" and thus all of it's value being removed. I feel much better knowing a professional outfit is doing this vs. individuals whose work does not go bad until years later. The coin I want to send in is plain ugly (even a toning lover should agree). I bought it because it is an interesting RPD, but would like to conserve it.

Clankeye

Well, and that begs another question. Would you rather have "professionals" doing this, or leave it to those at home?

I presume so many "junk" coins we see out on the market these days where once someone's conservation experiment.

prooflike

To me, that coin looks like it has been cleaned and retoned.

DHeath

Having had some experience with NCS, I'm pretty comfortable with what they do. I recently sent 3 dcam Lincolns in with splotchy toning to see what they could do with copper. I chose these coins because they had no real value, and I have never seen copper cleaned that wasn't damaged. I included a few Franklins that had terrible milk spotting, and I also included instructions to walk the coins next door to NGC for grading when they were finished (sister company). NCS chose not to conserve the Lincolns. They did improve the spotting on the Franklins. My opinion as it relates to toning is that I would never submit a coin with even moderately arrtactive toning, but I would never hesitate to send a problem coin, or one with damage. They are much better than e-zest at removing spotting, and have improved the look of every coin I have submitted. IMHO, only problem coins should be treated anyway. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'm also confident they are much better at this than 99% of the amateurs that try. They purport to have chemical backgrounds and do a analysis of the potential problem and treat with the appropriate remedy.

pmh1nic

Does NCS make a notation on the slab label that the coin has been conserved?

dbldie55

NCS does not certify coins. They have no slabs.

EVillageProwler

NCS does slab; they just do not grade. NCS recently started to offer an authentication, attribution and encapsulation service. Their holder is identical to NGC's, except that they use a clear plastic interior instead of NGC's white interior.

This service is only a few dollars per coin.

EVP

DHeath

Numismatic Conservation Services doesn't slab. They are a sister of NGC, and you have the option at submission to let they forward the coins to NGC or return them raw.


EVP - I believe you must mean another NCS.

EVillageProwler

Don,

NCS really does slab. I can't seem to find the brochure from the ANA, but they're sending me a sample slab. I buy a fair amount of raw early dollars (as long as they're problem-free), and I frequently don't care if they're graded. I like 'em slabbed as a form of environmental protection (and aesthetics). So, this service is important to me.

EVP

DHeath

EVP,

When you get the info, please PM me. I'd love to know about their slabs. Every time I submit and ask for raw, I get intercept shield holders. That's a nice touch.

keets

it seems from the FAQ page that the evaluation process is thorough and an integral part of the whole conservation. i doubt that they would do anything to a coin toned like the one pmh 1nic has as an icon and as they probably can't remove carbon spots or do something like just conserving a certain area of a coins surface without affecting the overall surface that much of the apprehension about what they offer is overblown. they don't seem like a fly-by-night operation to me. they are most likely just what they advertise as, professional curators.

i'd argue the point made by LW that what they do we can do ourselves. perhaps to a point, but i would trust a professional first. by comparison, i can fix most of the mechanical problems on my car but i trust it to a mechanic whom i know will do a better job by benifit of the fact that it's his specialty. think about it, we do such things in all facets of society, trust specialists. why should coin conservation be different?

to answer the posed questions directly, i believe they provide a usefull, needed service IN SOME INSTANCES. i also believe that the apprehension you feel about what they do is based in basic human fear of the unknown. i really don't think there's a snowballs chance in **** that all of the wonderfully toned coins we know exist will dissappear as a result of their service. that's a very extreme example i know, but probably in line with what some alarmists may believe.

al h.

michael

wow!! what a great thread with many interesting informative posts!!!!!!!! especially the new slabbing for ncs! wow


and also prooflike i saw your web site? the coin grader it is really great and set up well and i can see it is a work in progress as grading is always in a state of flux! and i think it will be a huge success with the topic and how it is presented, let me know if i can be of some small help if you need any specific coin photos!!!!!!!!!! i can always let you know the slabbed grades and the specifics on a coin as best as can be seen on a scan and only use scans that show the coin off correctly also any nuances or if a coin i can give you is high end or what to look for in an exceptional coin etc. etc, and of course having a coin scanned that can really show it off.....

and how you used the reverse of the proof ultra cameo trade dollar for your top of the page coin!! wow........ that is a really nice coin
........lol

just remember to let anyone know if they ask about it where you got it from......lol...... from my posting on here!!

also prooflike you have great taste!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......lol

also according to two top dealers in such things that is one of the deepest if not the deepest mirrored thrades in proof they have ever seen!
maybe not the finest grade wise but certianly in overall looks with regard to deep mirrors!

but after all is said and done have a good time doing all this and let me know what you think

sincerely michael

Clankeye

Keets--

...."i really don't think there's a snowballs chance in **** that all of the wonderfully toned coins we know exist will dissappear as a result of their service..."

The "wonderfully toned coins" are not the coins that I am fearful will disappear. It's some of the other ones. Ones that opinions are more divided about. Some mint-set toned pieces, some toned, but not colorfully, tab toned (like the coin that started this thread). The coins that some people find attractive, but others do not. There are a lot of coins that fall into this category.

I got a wonderful Booker T. commem this week that is heavily toned in deep browns, reds and gold on the obverse. I know many people wouldn't like it. But, I know a lot who would too. And I'm one of them. These are the coins that I don't want to see doctored. Because, as I've stated a few times in different threads now, when they're gone they're gone.

I'm not afraid that all the toned coins are going to disappear. That's exaggerating my concerns a bit. I just am interested in what distinctions NCS makes about what can and should be "conserved."

Cam40

When the market for `hi-grade cow paddies` goes sky-high,that might put NCS out of business.
Maybe they,ll work themselfs out of a job by the very nature of what they do.

Having said that,I,m all for chemical blasting of problem AT coins to a `natural `white.
Like grading,Toneing is highly subjective.No two people can ever agree eye-appeal.
All these little judgment calls we call grading,and `hows its eye-appeal`just all depend on who you are and where you are in life.

BigD5

Clankeye, I can understand your concern, but the problem is, you, I or we, can't control what each individual is going to do with his and her coins. NCS or not, if certain people obtain certain coins, they are going to dip 'em. Nothing anyone can do to stop them. There are certain coins that can be benefited from a "curation". From my experience, NCS seems to return plenty of coins that they don't feel they can "help". They'll return a coin if they believe an attempt at "curation" won't improve the coin.

Spooly

I wouldn't worry about NCS. It's me you should worry about! I dip tone coins by the hundreds everyweek! My mission in life is to make every coin bright white! Everyone needs to walk to the bright coin light!

EVP-scores with the NCS slab info! (I learned something to day)

DHeath

EVP,

As usual, you're spot on. I just got off the phone with NCS customer service, and the encapsulation will begin Sept.1st. It hasn't been priced yet, but will indeed offer a clear insert, a different hologram, and attribution, authentication, and no grade. I love the idea of that for certain coins, and will enjoy the service if it isn't too expensive.

EVillageProwler

Don,

I sure wish I have the NCS brochure from the ANA. I seem to recall this encapsulation service being priced at $6/coin, but I don't know if that includes both the authentication and attribution of the coin. I surmise that it includes authentication, but that the variety attribution costs extra (perhaps $5, just like with NGC).

I can potentially get into this service because I have a lot of coins that sell because of themselves and not because of the holder.

EVP

Clankeye

..."EVP-scores with the NCS slab info! (I learned something to day)"


Spooley--
If you learned something by me starting this thread, then I will consider that I have beaten the odds, and be satisfied with a positive result.

EVP--
Thank you for the very informative posts.

Also, DHeath, BigD5 and Cam40, and everyone else who has contributed. Points well taken.

And Michael--
I like the enthusiasm of your posts. It's a pleasure to have you on the boards.