A different type of trivia

kranky

This one is posed as a (fictitious) mystery.

I saw a really nice 1926-S Buffalo at a show recently, and I know a lot about Buffalos. It was raw, but a nice Unc 1926-S. It was a dealer I didn't know, and wondered if he knew what he had since it was just in a 2x2. "Hey, can I take a look at that 26-S?" Kind of baggy, but the luster was incredible. Bold strike from dies that weren't very old from the looks of things. I looked that baby over very closely and I was thinking shot 64 (but the part of my brain that was still logical was telling me 63). But why was it raw? Was the guy totally clueless?

Knowing that some rare mintmarked Buffalos have had fake mintmarks attached to the coin, I got out my high-powered loupe and made sure the mintmark wasn't glued or soldered on. Nope, it was definitely not a stick-on mintmark since there was no seam between the mintmark and the fields.

I asked if I could take it out of the holder for a better look, but the seller shook his head. It was on consignment and he wasn't allowed to take it out of the holder. I could see just about the whole coin anyway except for part of the edge. I checked out the edge I could see to make sure there wasn't any seam running around the coin (in case it was made from two different Buffalos cut through the middle and glued together. No seam.

"How much?" $2,000 was the reply. Oh well, not a totally clueless seller, I guess. But a great price for a 63 - or a 62 - or a 61 even. No doubt it was unc and not a slider. I couldn't see any reason why this coin wasn't slabbed. Yeah, it was a little baggy, but everything else about the coin was really nice and easily made it into 63 range.

I had to pass on the coin, though, as long as I couldn't take it out of the 2x2. Since I was sure about the grade, why did I have to pass?

Petescorner

Because without taking it out of the holder, you couldn't tell if the MM was embossed from the side of the coin? Just my guess.

-Dan

byergo

PCGS would guarantee the grade with $$$, and also cover you if the coin develops spots or problems. That's why you passed on raw.

kieferscoins

I agree about the PCGS grade guarentee, but since you were "sure" about the grade, I would have to say that you were not sure about the authenticity. Paying $2,000.00 for a coin you cannot take out of a flip is a definate "pass coin."

Cameron Kiefer

Hunt

I'd have to guess that the part of the edge you couldn't see had a major nick or something making it a much lower grade. Just a guess.

truthteller

Great Hypothetical story. Many years ago, a true collector and knowlegeable buyer of buff 5C would have bought the coin without hesitation. Now, the collectors of today are wusses! They rely on PCGS and NGC to do the thinking for them. Why is it not in a holder? Why does it HAVE to be in a holder? Perfect scenario of the "dumbing down" of the collector. If you knew what you were doing, then spending $1000, $2000, or more, would be no problem. The collector must rely on more than 5 opinions instead of his own good judgement. Furthermore, I constantly see collectors at shows taking coins from one dealer to other asking zillions of opinions before they buy or pass. Read the book and educate thyself, dear collector!

Ye olde TRUTH

Petescorner

Truth,

I don't think Kranky is worried about his grading skills. I think he's just too smart to buy a mint marked Buffalo without being able to see the third size. It is a very convincing method of altering Buffaloes, to have a small hole bored into the side of the coin, creating enough "extra metal" to emboss a realistic looking mint mark. The hole then gets filled and polished over to conceal the work done to it. Considering a 1926-P (no MM) goes for about $50 in MS63 compared to a 1926-S ($4,200), I think it's wise to see that third side closely.

-Dan

braddick

But, aren't there die characteristics for the 1926-P that separate the coin from a 1926-S? In this case, TRUTH'S arguement makes sense.

Petescorner

But, aren't there die characteristics for the 1926-P that separate the coin from a 1926-S? In this case, TRUTH'S arguement makes sense.

I'm by no means an expert, but I always thought die characteristics were for varieties. There were almost 1 million 1926-S Buffs and over 44 million 1926-P's minted. Even with the 26-S, would die characteristics show up on all 970,000 coins? (That may sound silly, but I'm only asking because I really don't know.)

But even if there were universal die characteristics that differentiate the 1926 from the 1926-S, wouldn't it still be much easier to detect an altered coin than to memorize the die characteristics of hundreds or thousands of different coins? Bottom line, if you can't see the whole coin, don't buy it. (At least not for $2k )

-Dan

truthteller

I meant no disrespect to Kranky's grading, just responding to a ficticious event and circmustances. From first glance, a 26S will 'look' differently than a 26P. Knowing a bit about buffs, the 26S is notorious for a mushy strike on the buff and weakness in detail. 26P has good to strong strike and is highly lustrous, rather than satin, finish. Knowing these characteristics from off the bat, allows for a more detailed examination of the coin. In addition, collectors buy coins from auctions all the time in PVC flips and are not allowed to remove them from the holder. David Lange has a great book on buffs with detail expanations of coining characteristics. Good thread!!!!

ye olde TRUTH

kranky

I knew there was no point in trying to fool this crowd, but the idea was to get newbies to consider all possibilities before putting their money down.

There were good reasons pointed out why it might not be a good idea to buy this coin. First, as truth says, the 26-S isn't known for a bold strike; worn reverse dies are the norm. The description of the coin does sound like the typical 26-P - that's suspicious in itself. And the embossed mintmark theory is what I had in mind. If I can't look at the edge right next to the mintmark on a coin like this, no deal. In the story I ruled out two of the more common ways to fake an expensive Buffalo, but I couldn't rule out the third.

For newbies:

If on a expensive mintmarked (but raw) Buffalo, you can't see the edge next to the mintmark to inspect it closely, you need to be careful. Petescorner described how a mintmark can be applied from "inside" the coin. It's not especially difficult since the mintmark is very near the rim. And it won't show a seam like a glued-on mintmark will.

Of course the person who faked the mintmark will try very hard to smooth over the area of the edge that was disturbed, so any funny business in that area ought to be a red flag. A knowledge of the different mintmark styles used in different years is very helpful, because chances are an embossed mintmark won't exactly match the genuine style of mintmark used. So is knowledge of the different striking characteristics of different dates and mints of the series you collect.

It may not be a overwhelmingly common fake, but being able to turn a $50 coin into a $4000 coin is a big temptation to some people, and with only $50 to lose by trying, you know people are going to try.

Knowledge is power. Knowing the series, the characteristics of different years/mints, the ways that expensive coins are commonly faked, and how to grade them will allow you to know when you need to pass and also know when to pick up a raw coin with confidence.

truthteller

Well said!

TRUTH 'O MATIC