Splain this to me someone! A Toning Question
FC57Coins
Posts: 9,140 ✭
Does toning, granted beautiful, breathtaking toning as it might be, make a coin worth 10 times plus it's going value? - someone explain that one to me.
Frank
Outragoeous bidding going on here
It's down to earth counterpart here
Frank
Outragoeous bidding going on here
It's down to earth counterpart here
0
Comments
Two kids in college, $$$
Tony
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I don't get it.
Frank
PS - here's the next level of technicolor coins - UGH!
This'll make you modern guys cringe!
Regards,
Frank
With the toned Franklins; as you know and I know, some are butt ugly, but some are nice. I really like the blast white ones from rolls, if you can get them. Also the proofs with gold toning around the rims are real nice. Haven't seen any lately, however.
It's late and I'm closing down,
Tony
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
It's just unfortunute that what I consider REAL pretty others do too (and the prices just keep going up).
peacockcoins
I've paid premiums for rare varieties, that some other collectors just can't understand.
In this hobby, we all collect coins, but in our own different ways.
Ray
I can understand perfectly what you're talking about in your message. However, there comes a time, when you have to look at two coins and decide for yourself - do you go with something that's outrageously priced? Or do you look for more reasonable alternatives. Below is a coin which I feel is just as pretty as the one in question. However, it didn't carry a premium for it's looks - it carried a premium for it's scarcity. Let's face it - in this hobby you're paying new money for old money and in some cases you're paying hundreds of times face value for something that if the world came to an end tomorrow - no one would give a crap about how old or how wonderful your coin was, just how much it could fetch. That being said, I'm still of the opinion that when you buy a work of art, you don't just pay a ton of money because you like it. You pay a ton of money when you like it AND it has a generally agreed upon value. That's what I can't see with some of these pieces - what IS the generally agreed premium, and if push comes to shove and you have to sell the piece, is a dealer going to see a monster colored gem, or is he going to see a desperate customer with a 58D half?
Regards,
Frank
<< <i>The value of anything is what a willing seller and a willing buyer agree it to be. >>
Ray,
What about if you don't have a willing buyer at the particular moment when you need to sell a piece for one reason or another. I don't know about you guys, but I guess I look at this hobby as an investment as well and I guess I worry a little about the liquidity of the pieces. I know that I wouldn't get top dollar if I HAD to sell. However, I think my investment is better protected by accurately graded pieces of known value as opposed to pieces which carry with it mostly intrinsic value to a particular collector. Kinda like the Franklin Mint syndrome of the 70's and what you see with some of the foreign LTNC pieces on TV. You ask yourself - who buys this stuff at these prices, well, someone does, or else you wouldn't see it on tv, but how often then do you see it in a dealer's junk pile selling for 1/10th its original value when someone decided that they had to sell it. Obviously you wouldn't see the 58D in a junk pile. Now, please dealers reading this - don't take offense because I know you're in business to make money, but I'll bet you a dealer with a quick buck on his mind wouldn't come close to giving you what you felt was a fair value for that piece if you had to turn around and sell it quickly. Just my humble opinion.
Regards,
Frank
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
however, toning, like all those ugly clothes in my closet, would eventually become fashionable again anyway.
I can't put a price on the coin, but, if your set were primarily toned in this way, I suspect the coin may be of more value to you than someone with a blast white set.
IMO, you shouldn't be purchasing this type of coin if your idea is whether you can make your money back, unless, or course this is your day to day business. I also think, some people have been sucked up into the thought that there is money to be made on every coin with color. I am much more interested in collectors of toned coins than those trying to make a buck.
I definitely don't like the majority of the toning on the 2nd 58-D; it looks like someone puffed smoke on it.
What can I say about comparing a 1963 to a 1958-D; it's fine if you are looking for a Franklin for a type set, but you sure can't fill the '58-D hole with a '63.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
I'm not a Franklin specialist but I haven't seen many of them with such beautiful (IMHO) toning. Paying that type of premium may make it difficult to "unload" the coin quickly at that price but I think the coin has got enough going for it that with time and patience you could recoup your "investment". Unless of course the coin doctors start producing batches of similar coins that can't be determined to be AT.
If you believe Anaconda hypothesis (higher IQ leans towards collecting toned coins) toned coin collectors might just be in the higher income brackets
According to Anaconda
If you like toned coins you have a high IQ
If you don't you have a lower IQ
I like both--does that mean I have a split IQ like a split personality?
Bryan
Having said that, would I pay that much for a Franklin half? No way in hell. I don't care for Franklin halves, I find it a dullard design and quite boring. But that is ME, not the buyer of this coin. That other person obviously LIKES Franklins. I certainly don't have a problem with that nor is it any of my business if I did.
To each his own.
jom
I would like to specifically mention two points I have seen raised in this thread and that I see raised in many threads. These are that you need to have lots of money to buy nicely toned coins and/or that you will have a hard time convincing someone else to pay anywhere near what it is you have paid when it involves a stiff premium for a toned coin. Let me give a single example that will show that both points are not always on the mark and that if you are patient, have a good eye and are willing to sacrafice some creature comforts you will be able to buy cool toned coins. When I was still in graduate school I was walking the floor at the Baltimore show when I came upon a table where a dealer had just bought a fairly large number of early '50s US Mint Sets. I stopped by and went through all the sets and asked if I could buy single coins from the sets. The answer was that yes I could but I also had to keep in mind that I would have to pay a premium as this dealer knew what nicely toned coins could bring. Out of these numerous Mint Sets I chose three coins; a '51-S Roosevelt, '52-S Washington and '51-S Franklin. They all had stunning toning. My cost for these three beauties several years ago? Over $1,000. You read that right, over $1,000. Remember, I was still in graduate school and was making only $1,000 each month. So, this was a chunk of change for me but it was easily worth it. I figured that the Franklin was costing me $600 and the other two coins were $400+ combined. Remember also that these coins were raw, there was no guarantee of grade nor was there a guarantee that the grading service (PCGS) would believe they were naturally toned. I graded the dime MS67, the quarter MS66 and the half MS65 and handed the coins to PCGS for grading. After the coins were graded I picked them up and they were graded exactly as I had thought they would be. The first aisle I walked down there were two dealers set up who sell quite a few toned coins and I sat down and talked with them a bit. I mentioned the Franklin to them when they were looking at another nicely toned Franklin in one of the cases. As soon as I took it out the conversation went something like this-
Dealer 1: Holy S***!
Dealer 2: Oh my god.
Dealer 1: Is it for sale?
Me: No, I just bought it and think it's cool.
Dealer 2: What do you want for it?
Me: It's not for sale.
Dealer 1: Did you pay a lot for it?
Me: Yes.
Dealer 1: I'll give you $1,000 for it.
Me: It's not for sale.
Dealer 2: What did you pay for it?
Me: $600
Dealer 2: I'll give you $1,200 for it.
Me: It's not for sale.
I ended up not selling the coin and I take it to shows occasionally to let people who like toned coins see it. I have since been offered more than I was in that initial encounter. Remember, I bought these coins raw, I paid more for the three of them than I made in a month and I get offers for them every time I show them. The dime and the quarter have also elicited strong bids but I still own all three coins. So, as you can see, I did not have a large disposable income when I bought these pieces and I certainly have not had to try to hawk the coins around to have them be wanted aggressively by others.
I guess the moral of the story is that you don't have to understand the market and you don't have to like the coins but there have always been others who appreciate them.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I like that story. I like that story a lot.
Nice story. I mentioned the disposible income aspect as only one of the many reasons why an individuals valuation of a coin might not match the value assessment of others. Individual income is only one part of the equation. One person casual preference may be someone elses strong desire and another persons uncontrollable passion
I've stopped trying to rationalize what someone else is willing to pay for a particular coin. I can give you the reason why I won't pay a particular price or a particular premium but then again, to each his own.
Consequently I'd be much more interested in trying to pay you the most I could, or taking as little as commission as possible on a consigned sale. It's a coin I know I could sell quickly to a happy customer.
In contrast, those flat gray ones excite nobody, so I'd want a big chunk off retail value. And if that made you decide not to sell them to me, I wouldn't really care.
My "HoleyMackeral!" coins fall in line with the type Tom was talking about.
I could probably buy five or six or twenty white Franklins for the same cost as one Monster toned one. I'd rather wait, (not always patiently as my CreditCards can testify to) and hold out for the ONE than the box of TWENTY.
peacockcoins
Speaking of which, FC57, isn't that a 1960-D MS65FBL? Don't you think the premium paid for that little difference over the next lower grade (about 10x for that date I think) is equally as nutty as that paid for the toning?
<< <i>tautology >>
E-gads! I didn't know I'd have to inquire, observe and/or reference Dictionary.com just to comprehend, grasp or otherwise understand your post, Tom.
For those of you who are old enough to remember Miss Stanwyck, she was a movie star from the 30's and 40's and played the matriarch in a show called The Big Valley back in the 60's. The reason that I thought of Barbara Stanwyck, was my dad. My dad was your typical old world "do it because I told you to do it" preceded by a slap to the head, but always meaning well. The one thing that really got to him though, was whenever there was an old Barbara Stanwyck movie on. It was like the world went away and he had her all to himself for the two hours or so that the movie lasted. Well, it seems to me that this same type of infatuation is what befalls us when we see a toned gem without comparison. We fall in love with it, and that's all there is to it. Now, some may want to spend extravagantly to own this gem, as I'm sure my dad, may he rest in peace, may have given a hefty sum to have one date with Ms. Stanwyck. However, he married my mother. In the end - he realized that his means and/or desire for this "perfection" were tempered by his personality, and his pocketbook.
So, moral of the story... no one here is right or wrong, we can all appreciate and admire great gems such as those you see at major shows and museums. We can ogle at $100,000 coins, but in the end we love this hobby because it has a little seduction in it for all of us.
Some of us like Barbara, some of us ogled at Marilyn, and still some like Madona or JLo. In the end no one can say we're right or wrong because this is our preference.
And bytheway - to Braddick and Supercoin yes - I like my 60D in MS65FBL - one of my favorites. And as to it's history, I picked it up for about $400 in an NGC slab, could immediately tell that it was a good crossover candidate and lo and behold it did cross over. Now the coin goes for somewhere in the $500 range, so I feel pretty comfortable with both the beauty of the piece, and the fact that for the most part, its a relatively safe investment.
Keep at it guys - and bytheway - a third thought.... this thread got over 20 replies through out the day - what the heck do you people do for a living???? LOL
Best regards,
Frank
I like reading your posts. You don't mince words. I have to disagree with you on this one though.
ps I wasn't flaming, I'm just a picky sob that thinks if you are going to spend killer $$ you should get killer coins in return!
peacockcoins
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Regards,
Frank
However, this coin is pretty, and may be worth some extra money. I don't collect Franklins but this coin seems prettier than some of the ordinary white ones or butt ugly dark toned ones that I have seen. As always, the issue is how much is any coin worth. The danger for buyers is paying the freght for a super coin and getting something less for your money.
I find a sense of originality and uniqueness with toned coins that I don't find with blast white ones. I enjoy a blazing coins but original toning adds another dimension to that enjoyment.
<< <i>I ended up not selling the coin and I take it to shows occasionally to let people who like toned coins see it >>
TomB: Care to show us some pictures of these???
jom
FC57Coins, my point on your 60D was that you paid $400 for that coin because it has one tiny little less mark than a MS64 that could be had for $40. A 10x premium for one barely visible difference.
Someone buying that wildly toned Franklin is paying an 8x premium for a very visible difference.
As an Ike enthusiast -- both condition-rare and toned -- I can appreciate the reasons for both premiums.
But to any non-collector (i.e. sane person), you're arguing the difference between crazy and loony.