OVERGRADED COINS

wallstreetman

When someone obviously has an overgraded coin because he had to submit a multiple of times to receive the grade, would it be unethical for him to advertize the coin as solid for the grade? If the potential buyer asked about the submission history of the coin, should he tell the truth? Also, what do you think about these people that screw up the population reports?

roadrunner

roadrunner

Geez these keys are touchy!!

I doubt if a seller is going to volunteer the fact that his coin took 5 submissions to make the grade. If pursued however I think he should admit it. Personally, I have no problem telling because by definition the coin is low end and it's price is going to be significantly lower than what a solid coin would bring.
Even if you don't tell the buyer he is going to probably know you got a gift regardless of how many tries it took. If you're asking a solid price for a low end coin, expect to own it for a while.

There are way too many dealers who proclaim that they only buy or own top end coins for the grade.
This just can't be the case across the board as then low-end coins would cease to exist. The real truth is that what stays out in the cases show after show, is just average or low end stuff. A truly high end coin
is not going last unless it's priced out of sight. And sometimes even at a huge premium, it sells any ways.

roadrunner

EVillageProwler

When someone obviously has an overgraded coin because he had to submit a multiple of times to receive the grade, would it be unethical for him to advertize the coin as solid for the grade? If the potential buyer asked about the submission history of the coin, should he tell the truth? Also, what do you think about these people that screw up the population reports?

I think if a coin averages 65 for the vast majority of its slabbed life, then one day gets lucky and ends up as a 66, then I think it would be wrong for the dealer to market that coin as being *PQ* for the grade. (This assumes we're talking about the same service each time.)

As for ``solid,'' I'm not so sure how I feel. I think that's because there's a grade range associated with that term, I wouldn't necessarily say it's unethical to use that term a little bit loosely.

However, I would certainly think ill of that dealer's inventory! I mean, if ``solid'' to him is only ``marginal'' to me...

EVP

braddick

I agree with EVP. I read another thread where a contributor suggests a coin may be sent in mulitiple times and when it finally hits on a top grade it might even be PQ for that top grade.
I've got to disagree.
It's where grading for yourself (or, at least knowing what coins look good/right to you) comes in and the insert simply verifies your own, stand alone opinion.

DCAMFranklin

If you are referring to your back & forth with Wondercoin regarding the MS/66 then 65 hoping for 67 quarter, then I'll say this. If a buyer asks me how many times I submitted the coin for grading, then I OWE them the truth. I would be more than willing to offer the FULL history, INCLUDING the MS65! Personally, I don't believe a 5-time through the grading room coin at MS66&65 has any chance of a 67. To answer your first question, if the coin is OBVIOUSLY overgraded, then the dealer would be VERY unethical to advertise the coin as a SOLID 67.

BillJones

Submitting coins for grading is part skill and part crapshoot. Sometimes you have to submit the same coin more than once to get the right and fair grade. Sometimes you get a fair grade on the first shot; sometimes you get racked over the coals; and sometimes you get a gift.

Let’s turn this around. What if the coin comes back overgraded on the first shot? I’ve had a couple of those where I knew the coin had problems and the grading service totally ignored them. In those instances I wholesaled the coins to other dealers, who were aware of the problems, because I didn’t want to sell those coins to my good customers who might have been led astray. Ethical used car dealers do the same thing. I try to be ethical, but I’m not an angel.

braddick

Hey- we're all learing here (and I've got an open mind): I take it that Trade Dollar was a multiple times MS64 before it locked into the correct grade of MS65. Cool. But is it a Premium Quality- right on the verge of being MS66?
Only you can answer that, owning the coin- but I'd speculate, in general (not referring to your coin) that doesn't work.
"MS64" "MS64" "MS64" "MS64" "MS64" "MS65!!"

But is it now a PQ MS65- almost MS66?

Dog97

It would be unethical for him to advertize the coin as something it's not.
If somebody asks I'll gladly tell the history of the coin but I'm not going to put in my descripition that it was a $50 64 that I cracked and dipped and now it's a $300 66.

tradedollarnut

Braddick - it DOES work that way when you are talking about key dates and top pops. PCGS is very reluctant to give a high grade to a key date. PCGS is also very reluctant to break a zero (ie: make the first coin for a grade). Combine the two and yes, you definitely can have a PQ 65 get multiple 64's before it makes 65. That's exactly what happened in this instance.

How about the Benson coins? Several of those went up more than one or two grades upon resubmission to PCGS. If a coin went from PF64 to PF65 to PF66, wasn't it PQ in the 65 holder? I bought the 1875-S branch mint proof twenty cent piece as a 63 that in my mind is a PQ64 due to the lack of marks, cameo qualities and beautiful toning. I would expect it to go up to 64 if I resubmitted it for review. So yes, I do believe that you can have a PQ coin in a higher holder that spent some time in a lower holder.

gemseeker

The question proposed by this topic seems eerily related to the disputed grading of another message post. With respect to the resubmissions to get the desired grading, it sounds like playing the roulette wheel hoping your number comes up by repeated attempts. I wonder if there are any "underhanded" dealings going on with the industry.

ARCO

I read all the threads and got too tired to think about it all Man I sure hate overgraded coins! I especially hate searching and searching for that special coin only to find it overgraded and overpriced by a dealer who knows it and just gives you that smug "Whatcha gunna do about it" look.

I have seen 4 or 5 just killer eye appeal halves in ACG holders, what are the chances the dealer is going to give the proper grade on those? Zilch. Hope they choke on those ACG slabs! LOL

Tyler

wallstreetman

Too say a coin finally got the grade it deserved after many submissions and looked at by a few knowledegable professionals each time is assinine! If everyone did this, do you know how many overgraded coins we would have?
When it comes to coins that have a good chance of being fake, most people will tell you to buy the coin slabbed. Why do you trust the services to authenticate a coin but not to grade it? Do you submit multiple times until it gets slabbed and not bodybagged?
Lets say a father(or that Billionaire) wants to put together (buy)a complete set of high grade Morgans to leave to his son or daughter that is really into coins. This father knows nothing about coins! Should he be able to make this purchase? I believe he should. I believe he should be able to trust that a top grading service like PCGS or NGC knows what they are doing and that the majority of his coins will be of the correct grade. This brings tears to my eyes thinking about a father doing this for his son or daughter, or anyone for that matter!
When you have these unscruptulous people playing this crackout game, this isnt possible! Then again, maybe their standards have gotten really loose by staring at all those overgraded coins they own and they really believe these services are way to conservative!
Legend, Do you really believe what you are saying? A coin gets a 66 sixty times and a 67 once and you call it a 67! Tell me your kidding! Does the coins history matter if you dont know it? Does a tree make a sound when it falls in the forest if nobodys there?

cladking

As long as an undergraded coin has a far greater chance of being resubmitted
than an overgraded coin then there will be far more overgraded coins on the
market than undergraded coins. Legend hit the nail on the head. Buy the coin
in front of you not it's submission history.

It's certainly ironic that most coins are advertised as premium quality.

wallstreetman

Well?

BillJones

Wallstreet you hit the nail on the head with out knowing. There are more than few overgraded certified coins out there, for whatever reasons. That's why buying coins is so tough these days for me and other dealers. You have got to go through hundreds of coins to find the good ones and in today's market you usually have to pay well for them. And conversely you can get good money (over "bid") from other dealers for choice coins.

That's why we get on your case when you make statements like, "Just buy PCGS coins, and you will be fine." And "NGC coins are mostly all overgraded; stay away from them." Both statements are false. You can get burned on any brand of certification holder and condemning the either of the top two (top three if you included circulated coins) as totally bad is just plain wrong and misleading.

Gilbert

Simple question.

Who determined that a PQ coin HAS TO BE a just missed the next higher grade?

Rhetorical question.

Do we all truly understand that as long as coins are market graded todays PQ could very well be downgraded next year.

We all have to see "eye to eye" on a particular grading standard before ANY adjective has an exact meaning. And it is obvious that many of us don't.

wallstreetman

Gilbert, That is why the services have more than one person looking at a coin! If you think one service has different standards than another, then you could average the grades from both. Im talking about people that use an obvious mistake to label the coin and use that mistake for personal gain! Remember, nobodys perfect, not you or I or PCGS or NGC or .......
I believe most people do the right thing, but some people dont!

wallstreetman

As far as the reputation of a grading service, Im willing to bet that these unethical people can really make a difference. If one has an above average amount of these people using their service, it could really take them down! I hope these people are using services other than PCGS since most of my coins are in their holders!
For those of you out there, please dont use PCGS! My coins are solid for the grade, I would hate to have them be labeled overgraded sight unseen!

roadrunner

You can see the same diversity in the auction room too. With say 20 major dealers present, of whom maybe at least 50% could be or have been professional graders, you will get a grade range of at least one point.
5 may say 64.8......another 9 may say 65.2.......another 4 may say 65.5.....and 2 may say 65.8 The coin is safely a 65 but at any time could come back as a 64, 65, or even 66. There always seems to be those 2 or 3 at the upper end of the scale. And not always the same people either. Everyone sees them a bit differently.


roadrunner