Mr Crito, I live here with dragon and we both owned that coin in question together, dragon is sitting her next to me and has started his own thread about this coin also.
Way to go Crito! Without your post regarding Golddigger's PM, how long might it have been before Golddigger admitted she lives with Dragon?? How many posts might she have made defending Dragon and this $1,600 "mistake", before we found out she lives with Dragon? We are definitely on the slippery slope now. It seems to be getting a little slimey.
Keets- excellent point, but I was careful to write "what if this was a coin that turned into an MS67...". I know very well (via your clear and large scan) this coin is NOT an MS67 and it is a wonderful MS65 (as is holdered now) and was only bringing up a hypethical.. Sorry for any confusion. Maybe I do need a nap. I'll take that sound advise and look forward to reading others opinions on this topic tomorrow morning. Good night!
coynclector is right, the coin was sold(hyped) to keets! keets was led to believe the coin has a shot at 67 but in no way would it ever go down to a 65! keets, you now say someone would have to be on crack to ever think the coin is a 67, well I guess you were on crack! dragon, this is what happens when you pump your stuff, just send the coin to the potential buyer and let them grade it themselves!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
Grading IS an opinion. If your coin was sent to PCGS for a re-grade, was it cracked? or was it sent in the slab? If it was sent in the slab you should look into the guarantee - but if you cracked it - then you run the risk of losing the grade when you did... I can't agree with you that if you hold on to the coin you should be able to return it at some time later. If you like the coin you buy it, if you don't you return it. Its all part of how transactions are done in this business. Please don't take this as a personal attack because it's not intended as such. I know you spent a lot of money on this coin and you feel cheated. But like anything else, maybe there was something about the coin you liked at first and then had second thoughts, well - by that time it was too late. We have to learn from these experiences.
Rotts is RIGHT ON. take responsibility for what you did, which was buy the coin SIGHT-UNSEEN. doesn't matter one rat's a$$ what plastic it's in, or who said what, the story is ALWAYS the same. SEE THE COIN BEFORE YOU BUY IT.
Keets. I feel for you and think I understand your position. And even agree that if the seller misrepresented the grade that it was less than ethical. Where our opinions diverge is in the grade itself. A competent grading company said it was MS-66, The sel- ler said he thought it was solid for the grade. Now, suddenly it's 65. There are many possible explanations for how this can occur that don't cast doubt on anyone's intergrity. Don't kick yourself- - but next time send it back or ask for an extension on the return privledge. Good luck on disposing of this.
1) Anybody trying to grade a coin within one point off a scan is fooling themselves. Vilifying Dragon off a scan is idiotic. If that "booger" is so bad, it never would have been holdered in the first place. If it was so bad, Legend wouldn't have sold the coin, Dragon wouldn't have bought it, PCGS wouldn't have graded it a 66 and Keets wouldn't have bought it.
2) The coin was graded by PCGS (God's gift to grading companies) and sold by Legend (a very knowledgable DMPL firm) so it's not just Dragon's opinion that the coin was solid for the grade or PQ (not sure which, since the story keeps changing)
3) Keets states: my intention for being vague is to just stimulate some opinion about the ethical question at hand which for me comes down to misrepresentation Well, the result of your being vague is that you have to change or clarify your story multiple times which casts doubt upon your credibility.
4) Relying on the fact that PCGS downgraded the coin as proof of your being "taken" is foolish. I've bought coins that went thru 6 times before they hit the grade, yet I agree with the grade. Do I seriously think I'd get the same grade on resubmission, or would it have to go thru 6 times again. I've submitted coins for upgrade that come back downgraded. Expecting PCGS to slab a coin as 66 twice in a row is foolish (unless the coin is a 68!).
5) If you've taken PCGS's money for the downgrade and now are just publicly flogging Dragon, then shame on you. If you cracked the coin first and got a downgrade and now are just publicly flogging Dragon, then foolish you.
How many of us have coins in our collections that we believe are great coins that PCGS would agree with the grade every time if cracked out? Does that make us unethical?
If in doubt, return it. What was your motivation to break the coin our in the first place? The chance that it would upgrade, as with everybody else. You rolled the dice and the seven came up. If the coin is PQ roll the dice again and see what happens. Try the NCS services or NGC, maybe even ANACS!
Unfair to flame another because the coin did not upgrade. I can’t tell you how many times we have lost at the certification game, but as one wise old man said to me….”this is your tuition in the coin business”. He was right, and I expect to continue to pay yearly. IMO!
Come on my friend. We're all adults here and based on what I read in some of his post keets is no novice. As Braddick mentioned if I get a coin in the mail I know within five minutes of careful examination after opening the package whether it's a keeper or not. Forget the grade on the slab either I like the coin or I don't whether the number is 65DMPL or 66DMPL. We're not buying plastic here. I have never had a coin "grow on me" where my first impression improved with time. I'm well versed enough (no expert but with some experience) to know what I like and as much as I respect the expertise of some of the members on this forum no one is going to convince me to like a coin or talk me into keeping a bad coin.
Bottom line - the coin was sold with a return privilege. If you don't like the coin send it back.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
ok the opinions have been well stated. i suggest its time to give the fella (keets) a break. all we're doing is piling on the pressure.
dude, good luck, and i'm sorry if you made a mistake on this one. lucky for you it wasn't really all that pricy. it's not like you bought enron stock right before the big collapse!
just to clarify a few points, then i'll cover up and take the hits. if you will read my posts, i have assumed responsibility for my part in entering into a transaction less informed then i should have been. i have no problem there. we all make mistakes, learn and move on to hopefully not make the same mistake again. the reason why i was intentionally vague was to avoid any bias from people who may know/have transacted with the seller. kinda like a guess the grade thread where no holder is shown for the same reason. as it stands, i'm fairly sure that someone PM'd dragon about the thread and then he started to PM me, sends his girlfriend here in his stead, never weighs in with an opinion and flames me on the other thread. hey, i can get down and dirty but it's not a personal thing here, it's a matter of an ethical transaction between two members where one, the seller, refuses adamantly to admit that he didn't act totally on the up and up. and remember, i made no mention of who the seller was, he ADMITTED who he was to gain a biased opinion. cronyism at it's worst!!!
there seems to be some confusion as to what my intention was with sending the coin to PCGS and how i did that. with regards to my earlier thread and maybe to another one that i can't find, it became apparent to me that the coin was indeed overgraded and i needed help. not trying to gain sympathy here but i'm just a working stiff. the 1 point grade difference is half a years mortgage for me. i had taken the coin after purchase to a local club meeting---some misdirected pride---and had some of the guys look at the coin. responses were about normal, it's a beauty but do you really think it's a 66? at the time, yes. my mistake here, i trusted the slab and the well informed opinion of the seller. this was the beginning of the end for that holder. NOONE i showed that coin to stated to me that it's a 66!!!! NOONE. some said it looked nice, most said 65, but NOONE said it was a 66-----over a 4-5 period of time here. at shows, at club meetings, on the forum. NOONE!!! so i had PM contact with some other members because my only hope of regaining my initial cost was with the grade guarantee. i felt reasonably confident the coin would come down and it has. i wasn't trying to get this coin to upgrade, that's ridiculous tonekiller and others. if you think that you didn't read the thread through.
with regards to a return policy, one was given. after i recieved the coin i contacted the seller to expres my surprise at some marks which were not described by him to me and mainly on the reverse which he did not send a scan of. we PM'd and he assured me that the coin was way better than the average DMPL and laid on the speil about his standing in the DMPL collecting field. hey, sometimes i'll trust a more informed opinion though it was a mistake to do that this time.any other questions or misunderstandings i'll gladly reply to. bottom line is that strongly believe he acted in a less than ethical manner and he is now trying to do a little damage control. remember that it was him who named names, not me. iwasn't trying to grind any axe's just to get some feedback and possibly help others to avoid this type of pitfall.
I think your thread may have gone over better if you had just given the whole scenario up front (leaving out Dragon's name if you chose); maybe there wouldn't be those who question your motive, OR, you could have (and I'm sure it would have gotten evern worse) but you could have just challenged his grading opinion.
These 2 threads point out why I don't do DMPLs and why I don't sell coins, particularly on this board. I cannot abide by the chatter prevalent on DMPLs and could never afford those that would please me AND regarding selling, well I'm just not a salesperson - my philosphy of pointing out the flaws I detect I suppose is counterproductive to being a successful retailer.
As far as the actual transaction, you did it in a "round about way" but you got your money back. I can understand how you may have felt intimidated (for lack of a better term) as Dragon is considered the Morgan expert by a lot of forum members, and he does have some vocal and prestigious (another intimidating factor to some???) supporters.
But you've learned a couple of lessons that just about everyone of us has had to learn: DMPL Morgans are a tough and expensive coin not to taken lightly; let the coin sell you, not the seller; sometimes you have to be assertive and exercise the return option, regardless of the expert - it is your money afterall; you sometimes should follow the advice you seek (July thread); oh, and the old cliche - buy the coin, not the holder.
OMG, pcgs overgraded at first or undergraded the second time. A professional third party opinion was meant to aid in sight unseen transactions. This is a another example of the professionals missing the point. Pinpoint accuracy that is. Large somes of money can be on the line. Learn to grade for yourself so you don't have to depend on the so called professionals (middlemen).
If I understand this correctly, the coin started out as a PCGS 66DMPL and is now a PCGS 65DMPL, there are only one of two ways that could happen, you submitted it in the slab for review, and it downgraded, in which case PCGS should be liable for your loss, or you cracked it out and sent it to PCGS and it came back one grade lower. Well, if you thought it was lower than a 66, why would you ever crack it out? You're smarter than that I think. But if that happened, then what do you expect Dragon to do? If I bought an unc double eagle from one of the self-proclaimed gold experts on these boards and didn't like it, but decided to carve my initials into it, should I expect a full refund? But that's similar to what happened here, only to the slab, and whether you admit it or not, you bought the slab here not the coin. If you bought the coin, you would have either not liked it and returned it, or liked it and kept it. The fact that the coin was regraded/reslabbed indicates to me that the plastic surrounding the coin was more important to you than the coin itself.
i submitted the coin holdered. the coin is a fine looking coin, make no mistake about that. i still would consider keeping it. but lets be sensible here. make a comparison with the shoe on the other foot and we can get rid of all the hypocricy and grandstanding by all the members. do you honestly think that as it is now, with the coin residing in a PCGS MS65DMPL holder that either the original owner or the seller i purchased it from would be willing to buy it for $1500-$2000? that would be profitable for either of them since they are on record as having sold it for approximately $2000. i will sell it to either of them or any member who puffs up and stands behind the assessment i was given by the seller for the bargain price of $1700. remember, it's the same coin you all think is a 66 with a shot at 67. guaranteed to be the same coin because the mark distinguishes it. go back and look at the scan. can i be any clearer? this is where this whole thing is leading. will a seller buy it back if he has the oppurtunity at a lower price even though the coin is in a lower graded holder?
the thread now has it's own life other than the one it originated with. my initial post was impersonal and vague but i will be personal and forthrigh if that's what everyone wants.
i never, never expressed anywhere that i expected the seller to refund my money after the agreed upon time period of 7 days. i have never expressed that i expect him to do anything. if he were to admit he hyped the coin some to coerce me into keeping it that would be a bit more honest than he's been so far. but i don't expect that nor do i think it would achieve anything now. i think through out the thread i've tried to express my thoughts clearly and concisely. i even edited my original post because the seller was upset that i was trying to mislead everyone. but people read and understand what they want to. part of the reason i wanted to keep things anonymous if i could. note that the seller has not responded on this thread where an open discussion with the entire forum could be engaged. he has chosen to post and then remain silent on a seperate thread. oh well. he has been less than ethical in some respects which is the gist of this whole matter. i'll be online till about 5 EDT if you want to discuss things further. after that i'll have to catch up in the morning cause duty calls.
If you submitted the coin holdered, have you cashed the PCGS check yet for the difference? It would seem only fair, if you are offering this coin publicly, you would subtract that amount and you would still break even. To offer the coin for what you bought it for (or close to it) and keep the check PCGS cut (grade guarantee between MS66 and MS65) seems uncool.
Back into the corner and put the pointy hat back on .
"if he were to admit he hyped the coin some to coerce me into keeping it"
Give me a break!
There is absolute nothing you can say that's going to get you one bit of sympathy from me with respect to this situation.
Coerced ... was somebody holding a gun to your head.
The seller gave you the opportunity to return the coin and you didn't. Your bad. I'm not going to try and get into your head or Dragons and figure out motivation, ethics or morality (hard enough figuring out and keeping straight what's in my head).
Are you now offering the coin sight unseen in the 65 holder at the 66 price with the same return privilege? Or are you offering the coin at the 66 price less the kick back from PCGS with a return privilege?
"i will sell it to either of them or any member who puffs up and stands behind the assessment i was given by the seller for the bargain price of $1700"
Why would I or anyone else stand behind the assessment of the seller. I'm paying for the coin with my money. Grading is an opinion and since it is my money my opinion counts the most.
You blew it. It's your responsibility regardless of what Dragon told you. Why? Because you saw the coin for yourself and had the opportunity to give it the thumbs up or down. I understand what Bill is alluding to but again the bottom line is grading is an opinion and your opinion (unless you're spending the dealers money) is the opinion that counts.
Dragon
What's this gold digger stuff all about?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
WOW!!! I just read the various threads on this subject and will give my opinion on what's going on.
First, I'd like to point out that I will paste this exact post in both threads so that no one can claim I am siding with one of the combatants and not the other. Second, I would like to divulge my dealings with both members so that anyone might decide for themselves if I have a conflict on interest. I have never dealt with keets outside of a few private messages so there has never been a financial exchange between us. I have, however, had some dealings with dragon. Approximately one year ago dragon sent me 30 nicely toned Morgan dollars and asked if I would offer them for him at a show I had a table at. Let me also mention that I did not pay him upfront for the coins and we had never met so he was essentially mailing off $6k-$8k in certified coins to a stranger. He listed his sale prices and listed his cost for each coin and on many of the coins he wasn't making anything at all. I also thought that about 28 of the 30 coins were extremely attractive. I sold approximately 20 of the 30 coins to other dealers during bourse set up at the prices that dragon wanted, therefore, it is safe to assume that he wasn't pricing himself out of the market. Of the remaining coins I sold all but a few and when I sent him a PM to tell him I was shipping the remainder back I also mentioned how my favorite coin in the group did not sell. This was about the only coin that carried a stiff premium and was/is a monster if you like PL, purple toned Morgans. He told me to keep the coin, free, as a "Thank you". Aside from sending private messages to one another about toning over the years this is our only transaction.
As for this case, if I read all the posts correctly it appears that keets was bidding on ebay on an '83-CC PCGS MS66DMPL and dragon sent him a PM offering one of these coins at about $700 less than keets was bidding. I really don't have a problem with that solicitation. I don't generally solicit business, however, if I know a Board member is looking for a particular coin, date, series, etc...and I see it on the web or at a show I will get in touch with that member and give all relevent information. Subsequently, dragon provided keets with a 400dpi scan of at least the obverse of the coin and then sent the coin. The coin had a 100% money back guarantee, probably good for one to two weeks, although I don't know if the $10 Registered Mail fee would be included. Apparently, keets did not immediately and sufficiently like the coin and he let dragon know about his uneasiness. At this point I believe things get murky. It's easy to claim that dragon coerced keets into keeping the coin and also easy to think that dragon tried to intimidate keets into keeping the coin, however, I believe that that is the lazy man's way out on this point. To be direct, we simply don't know either what dragon said, what keets actually asked and how what was said was said. Think about it, there have been multiple times where I have written something on the Boards without any malice yet others will read the post and will assume I am assailing the person my comments are directed toward. It's simply too easy to miscommunicate an inference in writing. As for their phone conversation, again, I have no idea how hard keets pushed any idea or what he really asked and how it was asked. It's easy to say in hindsight that if anyone is not completely happy with a coin they received from you that you would ask them to return it, however, if someone asks questions of you about a coin and you give your honest opinions to this person in a forthright manner and the person accepts them then I don't think it nearly so cut-and-dried. In the latter case you may very well think that you cleared things up to everyone's satisfaction. We simply don't know the truth here and it is likely that the truth is somewhere in between those two scenarios and that it will differ for each of the parties. Regardless, keets did not take full advantage of the money back guarantee. At that point a buyer is largely on his/her own as far as I am concerned. The coin is subsequently shown on a thread asking for grades and dragon does not post. I don't think this is weird, after all, I usually don't post an opinion when someone asks about a mint state coin since they are near impossible to grade via a scan. Also, if dragon did post that he thought it was an MS66DMPL then that post could be used now as ammunition that he was covering his rear somehow. I just think that the lack of a post in that thread should be a non-issue. I don't know if there were additional communications between dragon and keets so I can't make an observation as to brow-beating, pleading or general vacilliation. At this point, if keets were truly unhappy with the coin he should perhaps have tried to recoup his investment through ebay and offered the coin as a low-end MS66DMPL. I don't think anyone would have had an issue with that strategy. By going to PCGS and having it downgrade to MS65DMPL he now has, or will get, the coin and a check from PCGS. No doubt the check will be inadequate but I submit that this is not the seller's fault. I believe that since that avenue did not have to be pursued, and that even though the coin is likely to be no different, the slab has been materially changed. Yes, we all know to buy the coin and not the holder but we also know that in reality the holder adn label will slightly or largely influence the final price. Up to this point I think that keets made at least one extremely poor choice in that he kept a coin he didn't like and then made a lesser poor choice in having it regraded and accepting an inadequate check. However, I think the larger error was taking it public at all and even more harm was done by listing it in first a vague manner. I believe this was done for innocent reasons but it was still a mistake as far as I am concerned.
My final analysis is that dragon offered generous terms of sale and that keets made a mistake by not accepting the refund. This mistake was further compounded by getting it regraded by PCGS and accepting a low-ball check from PCGS. Even worse was the mess that was introduced to the Boards and how it was introduced. Do I think that dragon was unethical in this sale? No. Do I know that dragon did not coerce keets into keeping the coin? No. Do I believe that there was an honest miscommunication between a potentially intimidated buyer and a confident seller? Probably. Should this have been posted here? No way. What could/should dragon do now that the commodity (coin in slab) has been materially changed for the worse? Nothing.
One last thing; I don't know about this golddigger mess but it does strike me as being underhanded. We realize that golddigger has hardly posted at all in the time she has been here so it isn't like an active troll account, a la ModMan, however, there was definitely active deceit by using golddigger in keets' thread. That is the action by dragon that I find completely unsettling.
So if it was submitted holdered, shouldn't PCGS have some responsibility here? I don't know their policy, but I see little value in a grading service that won't stand behind their own grades. As for the hyoing of the coin, I agree, that is shameful, but both parties must share some responsibility here.
NO pcgs should NOT have responsibility. collectors should take responsibility for themselves. why are you expending so much energy worrying about what a third party thinks of your coin? do YOU like or don't you?
<< <i>I wanted to get some feedback as to how members would feel about the following if it took place between two board members.
1. You receive an unsolicited offer to purchase via PM related to a thread posting. The member represents himself as a knowledgeable collector in a certain series and offers a PQ coin.
2. After asking some questions and receiving answers regarding the coins description along with a high resolution scan of the holdered coin, the coin being offered is purchased and a return policy is offered.
3. Once you receive the coin, you contact the seller because it seems overgraded or you are at least uncomfortable with it's appearance.
4. The seller assures you that the coin is in fact PQ for the grade, and that since he is a specialist in the particular series you can be confident that the coin is correctly graded.
5. After owning the coin for a period of time and receiveng independent advice regarding the coin being overgraded, you submit it to the slab company and it is immediately down-gradedWould this be the typical transaction you would expect to take place between two board members? Did the seller act in an unethical manner by representing himself as a knowledgeable expert in his particular series and offering an obviously overgraded coin with assurances that it compared quite favorably to other same date/grade examples and was in fact much nicer?
Al H. >>
............if the seller offers a refund, and iam not pleased with the item, i would send it back, with a polite note stating why. if the seller is honest he will hold true to his word.
Comments
Sorry for any confusion.
Maybe I do need a nap. I'll take that sound advise and look forward to reading others opinions on this topic tomorrow morning.
Good night!
peacockcoins
keets, you now say someone would have to be on crack to ever think the coin is a 67, well I guess you were on crack!
dragon, this is what happens when you pump your stuff, just send the coin to the potential buyer and let them grade it themselves!
Regards,
Frank
K S
if the seller misrepresented the grade that it was less than ethical. Where our opinions
diverge is in the grade itself. A competent grading company said it was MS-66, The sel-
ler said he thought it was solid for the grade. Now, suddenly it's 65. There are many
possible explanations for how this can occur that don't cast doubt on anyone's intergrity.
Don't kick yourself- - but next time send it back or ask for an extension on the return
privledge. Good luck on disposing of this.
2) The coin was graded by PCGS (God's gift to grading companies) and sold by Legend (a very knowledgable DMPL firm) so it's not just Dragon's opinion that the coin was solid for the grade or PQ (not sure which, since the story keeps changing)
3) Keets states: my intention for being vague is to just stimulate some opinion about the ethical question at hand which for me comes down to misrepresentation Well, the result of your being vague is that you have to change or clarify your story multiple times which casts doubt upon your credibility.
4) Relying on the fact that PCGS downgraded the coin as proof of your being "taken" is foolish. I've bought coins that went thru 6 times before they hit the grade, yet I agree with the grade. Do I seriously think I'd get the same grade on resubmission, or would it have to go thru 6 times again. I've submitted coins for upgrade that come back downgraded. Expecting PCGS to slab a coin as 66 twice in a row is foolish (unless the coin is a 68!).
5) If you've taken PCGS's money for the downgrade and now are just publicly flogging Dragon, then shame on you. If you cracked the coin first and got a downgrade and now are just publicly flogging Dragon, then foolish you.
How many of us have coins in our collections that we believe are great coins that PCGS would agree with the grade every time if cracked out? Does that make us unethical?
Unfair to flame another because the coin did not upgrade. I can’t tell you how many times we have lost at the certification game, but as one wise old man said to me….”this is your tuition in the coin business”. He was right, and I expect to continue to pay yearly. IMO!
TBT
"Instead he talked you into keeping a bad coin."
Come on my friend. We're all adults here and based on what I read in some of his post keets is no novice. As Braddick mentioned if I get a coin in the mail I know within five minutes of careful examination after opening the package whether it's a keeper or not. Forget the grade on the slab either I like the coin or I don't whether the number is 65DMPL or 66DMPL. We're not buying plastic here. I have never had a coin "grow on me" where my first impression improved with time. I'm well versed enough (no expert but with some experience) to know what I like and as much as I respect the expertise of some of the members on this forum no one is going to convince me to like a coin or talk me into keeping a bad coin.
Bottom line - the coin was sold with a return privilege. If you don't like the coin send it back.
dude, good luck, and i'm sorry if you made a mistake on this one. lucky for you it wasn't really all that pricy. it's not like you bought enron stock right before the big collapse!
K S
just to clarify a few points, then i'll cover up and take the hits. if you will read my posts, i have assumed responsibility for my part in entering into a transaction less informed then i should have been. i have no problem there. we all make mistakes, learn and move on to hopefully not make the same mistake again. the reason why i was intentionally vague was to avoid any bias from people who may know/have transacted with the seller. kinda like a guess the grade thread where no holder is shown for the same reason. as it stands, i'm fairly sure that someone PM'd dragon about the thread and then he started to PM me, sends his girlfriend here in his stead, never weighs in with an opinion and flames me on the other thread. hey, i can get down and dirty but it's not a personal thing here, it's a matter of an ethical transaction between two members where one, the seller, refuses adamantly to admit that he didn't act totally on the up and up. and remember, i made no mention of who the seller was, he ADMITTED who he was to gain a biased opinion. cronyism at it's worst!!!
there seems to be some confusion as to what my intention was with sending the coin to PCGS and how i did that. with regards to my earlier thread and maybe to another one that i can't find, it became apparent to me that the coin was indeed overgraded and i needed help. not trying to gain sympathy here but i'm just a working stiff. the 1 point grade difference is half a years mortgage for me. i had taken the coin after purchase to a local club meeting---some misdirected pride---and had some of the guys look at the coin. responses were about normal, it's a beauty but do you really think it's a 66? at the time, yes. my mistake here, i trusted the slab and the well informed opinion of the seller. this was the beginning of the end for that holder. NOONE i showed that coin to stated to me that it's a 66!!!! NOONE. some said it looked nice, most said 65, but NOONE said it was a 66-----over a 4-5 period of time here. at shows, at club meetings, on the forum. NOONE!!! so i had PM contact with some other members because my only hope of regaining my initial cost was with the grade guarantee. i felt reasonably confident the coin would come down and it has. i wasn't trying to get this coin to upgrade, that's ridiculous tonekiller and others. if you think that you didn't read the thread through.
with regards to a return policy, one was given. after i recieved the coin i contacted the seller to expres my surprise at some marks which were not described by him to me and mainly on the reverse which he did not send a scan of. we PM'd and he assured me that the coin was way better than the average DMPL and laid on the speil about his standing in the DMPL collecting field. hey, sometimes i'll trust a more informed opinion though it was a mistake to do that this time.any other questions or misunderstandings i'll gladly reply to. bottom line is that strongly believe he acted in a less than ethical manner and he is now trying to do a little damage control. remember that it was him who named names, not me. iwasn't trying to grind any axe's just to get some feedback and possibly help others to avoid this type of pitfall.
al h.
I think your thread may have gone over better if you had just given the whole scenario up front (leaving out Dragon's name if you chose); maybe there wouldn't be those who question your motive, OR, you could have (and I'm sure it would have gotten evern worse) but you could have just challenged his grading opinion.
These 2 threads point out why I don't do DMPLs and why I don't sell coins, particularly on this board. I cannot abide by the chatter prevalent on DMPLs and could never afford those that would please me AND regarding selling, well I'm just not a salesperson - my philosphy of pointing out the flaws I detect I suppose is counterproductive to being a successful retailer.
As far as the actual transaction, you did it in a "round about way" but you got your money back. I can understand how you may have felt intimidated (for lack of a better term) as Dragon is considered the Morgan expert by a lot of forum members, and he does have some vocal and prestigious (another intimidating factor to some???) supporters.
But you've learned a couple of lessons that just about everyone of us has had to learn: DMPL Morgans are a tough and expensive coin not to taken lightly; let the coin sell you, not the seller; sometimes you have to be assertive and exercise the return option, regardless of the expert - it is your money afterall; you sometimes should follow the advice you seek (July thread); oh, and the old cliche - buy the coin, not the holder.
Anyway, I am glad you posted the thread.
For whatever reason(s) you kept the coin
If I understand this correctly, the coin started out as a PCGS 66DMPL and is now a PCGS 65DMPL, there are only one of two ways that could happen, you submitted it in the slab for review, and it downgraded, in which case PCGS should be liable for your loss, or you cracked it out and sent it to PCGS and it came back one grade lower. Well, if you thought it was lower than a 66, why would you ever crack it out? You're smarter than that I think. But if that happened, then what do you expect Dragon to do? If I bought an unc double eagle from one of the self-proclaimed gold experts on these boards and didn't like it, but decided to carve my initials into it, should I expect a full refund? But that's similar to what happened here, only to the slab, and whether you admit it or not, you bought the slab here not the coin. If you bought the coin, you would have either not liked it and returned it, or liked it and kept it. The fact that the coin was regraded/reslabbed indicates to me that the plastic surrounding the coin was more important to you than the coin itself.
Have that NCI? restoring company pick that nose clean and then send it back in. Maybe, at least, it may
get back into a MS66 holder.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Camelot
Pura Vida!
Camelot
i submitted the coin holdered. the coin is a fine looking coin, make no mistake about that. i still would consider keeping it. but lets be sensible here. make a comparison with the shoe on the other foot and we can get rid of all the hypocricy and grandstanding by all the members. do you honestly think that as it is now, with the coin residing in a PCGS MS65DMPL holder that either the original owner or the seller i purchased it from would be willing to buy it for $1500-$2000? that would be profitable for either of them since they are on record as having sold it for approximately $2000. i will sell it to either of them or any member who puffs up and stands behind the assessment i was given by the seller for the bargain price of $1700. remember, it's the same coin you all think is a 66 with a shot at 67. guaranteed to be the same coin because the mark distinguishes it. go back and look at the scan. can i be any clearer? this is where this whole thing is leading. will a seller buy it back if he has the oppurtunity at a lower price even though the coin is in a lower graded holder?
the thread now has it's own life other than the one it originated with. my initial post was impersonal and vague but i will be personal and forthrigh if that's what everyone wants.
i never, never expressed anywhere that i expected the seller to refund my money after the agreed upon time period of 7 days. i have never expressed that i expect him to do anything. if he were to admit he hyped the coin some to coerce me into keeping it that would be a bit more honest than he's been so far. but i don't expect that nor do i think it would achieve anything now. i think through out the thread i've tried to express my thoughts clearly and concisely. i even edited my original post because the seller was upset that i was trying to mislead everyone. but people read and understand what they want to. part of the reason i wanted to keep things anonymous if i could. note that the seller has not responded on this thread where an open discussion with the entire forum could be engaged. he has chosen to post and then remain silent on a seperate thread. oh well. he has been less than ethical in some respects which is the gist of this whole matter. i'll be online till about 5 EDT if you want to discuss things further. after that i'll have to catch up in the morning cause duty calls.
al h.
To offer the coin for what you bought it for (or close to it) and keep the check PCGS cut (grade guarantee between MS66 and MS65) seems uncool.
peacockcoins
Back into the corner and put the pointy hat back on
"if he were to admit he hyped the coin some to coerce me into keeping it"
Give me a break!
There is absolute nothing you can say that's going to get you one bit of sympathy from me with respect to this situation.
Coerced ... was somebody holding a gun to your head.
The seller gave you the opportunity to return the coin and you didn't. Your bad. I'm not going to try and get into your head or Dragons and figure out motivation, ethics or morality (hard enough figuring out and keeping straight what's in my head).
Are you now offering the coin sight unseen in the 65 holder at the 66 price with the same return privilege? Or are you offering the coin at the 66 price less the kick back from PCGS with a return privilege?
"i will sell it to either of them or any member who puffs up and stands behind the assessment i was given by the seller for the bargain price of $1700"
Why would I or anyone else stand behind the assessment of the seller. I'm paying for the coin with my money. Grading is an opinion and since it is my money my opinion counts the most.
You blew it. It's your responsibility regardless of what Dragon told you. Why? Because you saw the coin for yourself and had the opportunity to give it the thumbs up or down. I understand what Bill is alluding to but again the bottom line is grading is an opinion and your opinion (unless you're spending the dealers money) is the opinion that counts.
Dragon
What's this gold digger stuff all about?
This seems like the bigger issue here as it can do far more damage than a dealer HYPING his wares.
First, I'd like to point out that I will paste this exact post in both threads so that no one can claim I am siding with one of the combatants and not the other. Second, I would like to divulge my dealings with both members so that anyone might decide for themselves if I have a conflict on interest. I have never dealt with keets outside of a few private messages so there has never been a financial exchange between us. I have, however, had some dealings with dragon. Approximately one year ago dragon sent me 30 nicely toned Morgan dollars and asked if I would offer them for him at a show I had a table at. Let me also mention that I did not pay him upfront for the coins and we had never met so he was essentially mailing off $6k-$8k in certified coins to a stranger. He listed his sale prices and listed his cost for each coin and on many of the coins he wasn't making anything at all. I also thought that about 28 of the 30 coins were extremely attractive. I sold approximately 20 of the 30 coins to other dealers during bourse set up at the prices that dragon wanted, therefore, it is safe to assume that he wasn't pricing himself out of the market. Of the remaining coins I sold all but a few and when I sent him a PM to tell him I was shipping the remainder back I also mentioned how my favorite coin in the group did not sell. This was about the only coin that carried a stiff premium and was/is a monster if you like PL, purple toned Morgans. He told me to keep the coin, free, as a "Thank you". Aside from sending private messages to one another about toning over the years this is our only transaction.
As for this case, if I read all the posts correctly it appears that keets was bidding on ebay on an '83-CC PCGS MS66DMPL and dragon sent him a PM offering one of these coins at about $700 less than keets was bidding. I really don't have a problem with that solicitation. I don't generally solicit business, however, if I know a Board member is looking for a particular coin, date, series, etc...and I see it on the web or at a show I will get in touch with that member and give all relevent information. Subsequently, dragon provided keets with a 400dpi scan of at least the obverse of the coin and then sent the coin. The coin had a 100% money back guarantee, probably good for one to two weeks, although I don't know if the $10 Registered Mail fee would be included. Apparently, keets did not immediately and sufficiently like the coin and he let dragon know about his uneasiness. At this point I believe things get murky. It's easy to claim that dragon coerced keets into keeping the coin and also easy to think that dragon tried to intimidate keets into keeping the coin, however, I believe that that is the lazy man's way out on this point. To be direct, we simply don't know either what dragon said, what keets actually asked and how what was said was said. Think about it, there have been multiple times where I have written something on the Boards without any malice yet others will read the post and will assume I am assailing the person my comments are directed toward. It's simply too easy to miscommunicate an inference in writing. As for their phone conversation, again, I have no idea how hard keets pushed any idea or what he really asked and how it was asked. It's easy to say in hindsight that if anyone is not completely happy with a coin they received from you that you would ask them to return it, however, if someone asks questions of you about a coin and you give your honest opinions to this person in a forthright manner and the person accepts them then I don't think it nearly so cut-and-dried. In the latter case you may very well think that you cleared things up to everyone's satisfaction. We simply don't know the truth here and it is likely that the truth is somewhere in between those two scenarios and that it will differ for each of the parties. Regardless, keets did not take full advantage of the money back guarantee. At that point a buyer is largely on his/her own as far as I am concerned. The coin is subsequently shown on a thread asking for grades and dragon does not post. I don't think this is weird, after all, I usually don't post an opinion when someone asks about a mint state coin since they are near impossible to grade via a scan. Also, if dragon did post that he thought it was an MS66DMPL then that post could be used now as ammunition that he was covering his rear somehow. I just think that the lack of a post in that thread should be a non-issue. I don't know if there were additional communications between dragon and keets so I can't make an observation as to brow-beating, pleading or general vacilliation. At this point, if keets were truly unhappy with the coin he should perhaps have tried to recoup his investment through ebay and offered the coin as a low-end MS66DMPL. I don't think anyone would have had an issue with that strategy. By going to PCGS and having it downgrade to MS65DMPL he now has, or will get, the coin and a check from PCGS. No doubt the check will be inadequate but I submit that this is not the seller's fault. I believe that since that avenue did not have to be pursued, and that even though the coin is likely to be no different, the slab has been materially changed. Yes, we all know to buy the coin and not the holder but we also know that in reality the holder adn label will slightly or largely influence the final price. Up to this point I think that keets made at least one extremely poor choice in that he kept a coin he didn't like and then made a lesser poor choice in having it regraded and accepting an inadequate check. However, I think the larger error was taking it public at all and even more harm was done by listing it in first a vague manner. I believe this was done for innocent reasons but it was still a mistake as far as I am concerned.
My final analysis is that dragon offered generous terms of sale and that keets made a mistake by not accepting the refund. This mistake was further compounded by getting it regraded by PCGS and accepting a low-ball check from PCGS. Even worse was the mess that was introduced to the Boards and how it was introduced. Do I think that dragon was unethical in this sale? No. Do I know that dragon did not coerce keets into keeping the coin? No. Do I believe that there was an honest miscommunication between a potentially intimidated buyer and a confident seller? Probably. Should this have been posted here? No way. What could/should dragon do now that the commodity (coin in slab) has been materially changed for the worse? Nothing.
One last thing; I don't know about this golddigger mess but it does strike me as being underhanded. We realize that golddigger has hardly posted at all in the time she has been here so it isn't like an active troll account, a la ModMan, however, there was definitely active deceit by using golddigger in keets' thread. That is the action by dragon that I find completely unsettling.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Good points. I read till went blind.....please hit the 'enter' button every once in a while.
GSAGUY
So if it was submitted holdered, shouldn't PCGS have some responsibility here? I don't know their policy, but I see little value in a grading service that won't stand behind their own grades. As for the hyoing of the coin, I agree, that is shameful, but both parties must share some responsibility here.
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
<< <i>I wanted to get some feedback as to how members would feel about the following if it took place between two board members.
1. You receive an unsolicited offer to purchase via PM related to a thread posting. The member represents himself as a knowledgeable collector in a certain series and offers a PQ coin.
2. After asking some questions and receiving answers regarding the coins description along with a high resolution scan of the holdered coin, the coin being offered is purchased and a return policy is offered.
3. Once you receive the coin, you contact the seller because it seems overgraded or you are at least uncomfortable with it's appearance.
4. The seller assures you that the coin is in fact PQ for the grade, and that since he is a specialist in the particular series you can be confident that the coin is correctly graded.
5. After owning the coin for a period of time and receiveng independent advice regarding the coin being overgraded, you submit it to the slab company and it is immediately down-gradedWould this be the typical transaction you would expect to take place between two board members? Did the seller act in an unethical manner by representing himself as a knowledgeable expert in his particular series and offering an obviously overgraded coin with assurances that it compared quite favorably to other same date/grade examples and was in fact much nicer?
Al H.
............if the seller offers a refund, and iam not pleased with the item, i would send it back, with a polite note stating why. if the seller is honest he will hold true to his word.