Cleaned or counterfeit? You make the call!

DesertLizard

OK, I am no expert but this flowing hair $1 looks almost cartoonish.

It is in a PCGS slab so it has some credibility but it still looks funny. Am I alone on this one?

Take a look:

1795 vf25 flowing $1 PCGS

KoinKollector

Coin has definetly been cleaned due to the lightness of the coin. I didnt see anything that looked "funny" about it tho. I wouldnt personally buy it because of the color & the slashes on the obv near the rims.

Dog97

You can see the hairlines from a cleaning.

DesertLizard

A follow up question..... why if it is cleaned the slab doesn't indicate that fact?

jom

PCGS does not put that info on their holders. ANACS does but PCGS seems to think they are only obligated to give you a grade for the ridiculous fee they charge.

As to why a cleaned coin is graded at all: PCGS I think gives older coins the benefit of the doubt since many of those coins were cleaned many years ago. Same holds for Bust coinage, I believe.

jom

braddick

PCGS, along with all the others, will grade a coin that has been lightly cleaned, such as this one, from that era.
If they didn't, very few coins before 1879 would qualify for grading.
The lighting on this one accents the cleaning, although probably in reality it is very light.
Even the ones that haven't been mishandled via a cleaning will show circulation hairlines under this lighting.

Could those "slash" marks be mintmade?

muenzen

<< <i>A follow up question..... why if it is cleaned the slab doesn't indicate that fact? >>




That is because it was salvaged from the Atlantic and it has been curated. So, it is okay if it has the cleaned look. It is destined for collectors with deep pockets. Their coins are curated, the common guys are cleaned.

Steve27

muenzen,

This coin has been "cleaned" (i.e. a mechanical process was used which left visible scratches on the coin). Had it been "curated" (i.e. a chemical process only) no scars would be detectable.

medicain19

Is the cleaned look also seen by the darkness around the stars and letters?

dorkkarl

<< <i>PCGS, along with all the others, will grade a coin that has been lightly cleaned, such as this one, from that era >>

they will also grade heavily cleaned AND repaired coins DESPITE what the masses think.

the "slash marks" are definitely adjustment marks. it is a nice coin with XF+ detail in my opinion. i don't care one lick about the clenaing - in 207 years, it was bound to happen. i mean, would you take a bath yourself in 207 years???

he11, i just might bid on that one.

K S

KlectorKid

yep, cleaning can be seen by the darkness around the stars. That wasnt the best cleaning job.

dorkkarl

ok, 2 posts:

<< <i>A follow up question..... why if it is cleaned the slab doesn't indicate that fact? >>

in essence it does. anyone familiar w/ the series would recognize the xf detail and realize that the lower grade is a net grade. not criticizing in this case, just pointing out that it pays to know how to grade these, because then you know what xf detail looks like.

K S

Conder101

I wouldn't say XF details. The reverse has some claim to XF but not the obverse. The cleaning is very old but it was also a rather harsh cleaning. The color is coming back nicely and the marks by the rim at around 10:00 are mint made adjustment marks. Frankly PCGS should not have slabbed this due to the harsh cleaning but is is a moderately attrative coin. I would net it as a F-12 but I might be willing to pay F-15 money for it. I would not pay VF-20.

dorkkarl

gotta disagree, conder, just a little. it may not be quite xf detail, but it is like a VF-35, owing to the virtually complete oberse hairline separation, full eye detail, and a clearly xf rev. i think the obv is weak as struck, and this coin is worth way more than fine $ to me. to he11 with the cleaning as far as i'm concerned, they are ALL cleaned, MANY of them harshly. i predict a $3000+ snipe.

K S

sadysta1

Could someone e-mail the seller and ask: "from the pictures the coin looks cleaned, in your opinion is is cleaned??" I cannot check my e-mail for a couple more days. Is is a well known seller I curious about his respose.

dorkkarl

already asked, no resp. yet.

braddick

There is just enough wear on this one (check just left of the hairline and the neckline) to place it in the upper VF range but certainly out of the XF field.

dorkkarl

hey sadysta1, check it out. my question at the bottom, their worthless answer HERE:

Hi,

As with virtually all early dollars, this piece MAY have been cleaned a long time ago. However, it's retoned nicely, and it's as perfect as any VF in existence. If you have noticed, we handle as many early dollars as anyone in the country, so we're pretty well versed on their marketability.

Thanks, and let me know if you have any further questions.

Robert Lehmann
The Reeded Edge, Inc.

Thank you for contacting The Reeded Edge, Inc., your online source for world-class coins and collectibles. The Reeded Edge, Inc., 113-115 Baltimore Street, Suite 200, Cumberland, MD 21502. Please visit our web store @
www.reedededge.com

----- Original Message -----
From: dorkkarl
To: <mail@reedededge.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Question for seller -- Item #1373121147

hi, saw this great coin you have on ebay. i was wondering if it is cleaned??? i know that pcgs slabs a lot of cleaned bust coins, which is fine with me, i just want to know how to adjust my bid.

thanks a lot for getting back to me. nice coin!@!

K S

BillJones

The supply of early dollars is really thin, and it’s been that way for over three years. Pieces that collectors would have rejected out of hand years ago because of major defects now sell readily at prices that border on the ridiculous. Problem free pieces sell at run away prices. The Gray Sheet and most of the price guides are so far out whack that they are almost useless on these coins.

My guess is that this piece will sell for or the consigner will sell it for at least $3,500, and buyer might think he’s gotten a bargain. I’ve seen raw coins with similar sharpness, but signs of light repairs, that would make them uncertifiable by PCGS or NGC, sell for over $2,000.

This is not the worst early dollar that I have seen in a PCGS holder. A couple of years ago I saw an 1801 dollar with initials lightly but obviously scratched into the obverse field in a PCGS EF-45 holder. When I pointed this out, the seller said, “Well PCGS must of net graded it from AU to EF-45 because of that.”

This coin with the initials is one of many examples of where PCGS has less than infallible. Its one of many examples that runs counter to the advice of those who say that all you have to do to get a good coin is to purchase only PCGS products.

stujoe

I am no expert but sometimes I see coins like this go for more than I think they should. I think it is sometimes because a bidder will see it and say "Wow that's got more detail than your average VF25. I will bid closer to VF30+ for it." without realizing that it is has been graded VF25 because of the cleaning (or other problem) which they may not recognize.

I have also seen what I think is the opposite. A beautifully toned coin will go for more than I think it should. I think that is sometimes because someone sees it and says "Wow that is an MS66 with great toning. I will bid close to MS67 money." without realizing that it was probab;y given the MS66 grade because of the beautiful toning and that it would probably be an MS65 if it was untoned.

I think these are the exception rather than the rule and that is why they are not seen much but when they do show up people wonder why they were holdered at all or think the grade and/or final price is way off. I don't think your average coin gets those kind of bump ups or bump downs as the case may be.

dorkkarl

<< <i>A couple of years ago I saw an 1801 dollar with initials lightly but obviously scratched into the obverse field in a PCGS EF-45 holder >>

like i said, despite what the masses think they will slab repaired coins. there is also a bust dollar running around that has a date scratched in jumbo letters scraped on the obverse with not even a feeble attempt to hide it, and it is in the plastic. i've seen it at least twice.

K S