Recently, I was walking by (because it was near the NGC booth) the PCGS booth when I heard this elderly woman telling Stacey that she had some coins to submit. From what I could tell, these were cheap-o coins and probably weren't worth the $99 for signing up. Anyway, this elderly woman said that she was submitting to PCGS because she heard they were the best. She then asked Stacey, ``You're the best, right?''
Ask anyone with a MBA in Marketing. Perception matters a lot. Marketing matters a lot. Otherwise, there'd be no MBA program in Marketing, and the B-school grads would be filled with technocrats. You can't gauge what the public knows or what it thinks it knows based solely on numbers. Those silly Ebay stats about PCGS bringing higher prices... Those numbers can be quite misleading in this context. Ever think that that stat could be self-fulfilling? Imagine this:
``Say, I heard that PCGS coins are the best.''
``Yeah, I heard that too. I guess they'd cost more.''
...
``Say, these PCGS coins sure are expensive. I heard they were the best.''
``Yup, I heard that too. I guess they are the best.''
People should realize that a lot of the prices realized on Ebay are due to folks who aren't seasoned veterans and must rely on the judgement of others (like the services), or they're solely in it for the Registry competition -- which is more about numbers than about coins.
hey mike----i'm not trying to defend either side of the arguement here, i own slabs from both companies. and of course the math works out the same. i was only providing an example with a one coin situation in each holder and the market perception of value. if the situation is as i outlined it, you are not permitted to buy two coins, only one!! my post, so i get to make the rules!!
Getting back to the 30-day posting rule, I have a question. If WSM gets to suspend the First Amendment for 30 days, can I reimplement FDR's famous executive order from May of 33? If so, I hereby declare it illegal to own any US gold coins, please PM me if you have any and I will give you the address where you can send them for safe disposal...
You're getting greedy. FDR's order exempted gold coins with a numismatic or collectible value. At that time, the incuse coins designed by BLP were safe from that order. By today's definition, I think all those Libs and ASG designs would also be exempt since they also have collectible value.
I guess I'll just have to make due with all the gold American Eagles then...I may be paranoid, but did you ever wonder why the original eagle legislation specifically notes that these coins are all bullion?
Russ, a grade is an opinion, and yes, the premium is because PCGS is more conservative than NGC! Why do people perceive something, because of what they have learned in the past!
Evillage, what the heck are you talking about? Where did all this buy and sell, high and low B.S. come from? Yes, I read your other thread, and please refrain from name calling! Who said that I only buy slabbed coins? I use PCGS because I dont want to own an overgraded coin! I wouldnt want to sell a coin to a member or anyone else and have them say "Wallstreetman sells overgraded coins"! 80 % of my coins I made myself! This isnt to say you cant buy PCGS and sell for a profit. I made some good money buying coins from Tulving and selling on Ebay , but emailing sellers and going around Ebay is by far more profitable. Heres what I like to tell people, "Dont wait until you need the money to sell something and never be in a hurry to buy"! There is money to be made from people who dont follow these simple rules! Also, EVERYTHING I OWN IS FOR SALE All THE TIME, IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT! I dont place sentimental value on anything! I can provide proof if you need it!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
psesonally i like people who only buy pcgs..........it means i have less competition for non pcgs coins........
also i was chatting with i guy who didnt like the ngc STAR*......he said who are they to tell everyone what a premium coin it is ( to me ngc should know as they have seen millions of coins and they want people to know for those that dont ... what premium coins look like) ....i told him simply....."spoken like a man with boxes of average coins....for if you have done a great job in your collecting you would love it because all your coins would warrant them...now on the other hand if you have bought average coins and shopped the price only...you will be told by your lack of STARS*...AND THE WORLD WILL KNOW....and you will be exposed!!!"
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>Russ, a grade is an opinion, and yes, the premium is because PCGS is more conservative than NGC! >>
WSM,
Thank you for repeating what I just said. However, that was not your original assertion. You stated that the price premium exists because the majority of collectors AGREE with PCGS's grading standards. That is not the same thing.
How much more conservative is PCGS than NGC? According to the marketplace they are 3%-5% more conservative. Perhaps they aren't really more conservative, but that the 3%-5% difference is accounted for by personal (marketing) preferences?
Greg: I'm gonna have to disagree with that. It's my belief that Greysheet (and Trends for that matter) are throwing out a lot of PCGS transactions because they go for so much that the stat keepers figure the coins are upgrade candidates. This keeps those published percentages very close when in reality PCGS coins are bringing much more than NGC coins right now because PCGS is undergrading severely to the market.
This is not to infer that PCGS is "better". NGC seems to be more consistent in grading. But the fact is that PCGS is grading sooo tight that prices for many of the coins in their holder have gone thru the roof.
TDN: I was using the figures published on the front of the Bluesheet. It shows that sight unseen examples trade at statistically the same levels.
Sight seen coins might trade at different levels due to one service undergrading coins. However, that doesn't mean that service X coins bring more money. The question really is: Does a coin in a PCGS MS65 slab bring more money than the IDENTICAL coin in an NGC MS65 slab? I say no.
Do super PQ and undergraded coins in PCGS slabs bring more money than standard NGC coins. Sure. The same is true about PQ NGC coins. Just because PCGS has decided to undergrade coins doesn't mean coins in their slabs bring more money. It just means that undergraded coins in their slabs bring more money than properly graded coins in other slabs. Therefore the slab is useless and the coin is priced and not the slab.
>>>>>This keeps those published percentages very close when in reality PCGS coins are bringing much more than NGC coins right now because PCGS is undergrading severely to the market. >>>>>>>>
you are exactly right.......to me ngc properly grades coins and pcgs undergardes too many in comparing the 2 services........and i love to pick out the undergraded ones...then send them to ngc for proper grading...some go up and rightfully so but most dont ( i recently put all my commems into ngc holders and i had 14 coins in pcgs holders....not one ungraded....boo...i did get an upgrade on a crossover on one of my icg coins though....in the future if i sell ( which i do because i am always upgrading ) i either find someone who knows what the coin`s grade is and pays for it in an ngc holder or if the buyer wants i`ll put it into a pcgs slab which is sometimes a grade higher than it was when i bought it......and i make the spread...the loser is the previous pcgs owner who had an undergraded coin .....compliments of pcgs`s policy of increasing their revenues at the unknowing`s expense
>>>>>i either find someone who knows what the coin`s grade is and pays for it in an ngc holder>>>>>>
here in lies a big what i call the " jones theory" ( you know drinking that poison koolaid).....i have a commem buddy who for years was a pcgs nut ......and drank the koolaid......as i upgraded i gave him the first shot at a few of my dups.....they were in ngc holders....each opportunity he passed.........one coin is a hawaiian where i think i know where the top 5 are.....i had the # 2 coin ( imho)....i unbelievably fell into the moose of all mooses...thus my other coin was available...i offered it to him....he passed........a sharpie dealer knew what i had.....and their customer had what i called the # 5 coin...they quickly jumped on my coin and improved their customers set from 5 to 2.....and put theirr old # 5 coin up for sale for 4000 more than my buddy could of bought the # 2 coin for.........i also offered him a monster columbian in 66 at twice sheet in a ngc holder....he passed.........he now owns the coin but he didnt buy the coin from me....the guy i sold it to put it into a pcgs slab....and the price was 3 1/2 times the sheet.....after way too many of these scenarios he finally got wise...........and last show he was submitting coins at ngc..........he just paid five figures ( nearly 15 k) for a monster ngc 67 ark......he has now arrived and is detoxed from the koolaid !!!
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I agree with TDN on that, after all it seems that most coins in older PCGS holders demand a premium over their newer counterparts because of the shifting standards over time. How are you supposed to adjust for that? And WSM, the gold expert, how do you account for the lack of premium on a vast number of gold coins today? You've asserted previously that NGC gold is overgraded, so with prices identical on so many coins, it seems there should be an arbitrage opportunity for you (PM me if you need a definition of arbitrage).
Finally, here is a nice photo of WSM, the PCGS Shark going after those of us stupid enough to challenge his beliefs...
wallstreet.....maybe you should change your name...you dont have anything to do with enron do you??
anyway here is somethings for you to think about ...its a post of interest
>>>>>>The star in my mind is a flashing sign saying "take a closer look">>>>>>>>
you are exactly right ...........i firmly believe its tool by which ngc helps level the playing field for the collectors and takes away some of the " dealer advantage"....thus by having the benefit of the tool i feel ngc fully plans on it closing the gap on pcgs in the market place as a whole company........and to be frank ......i feel the STAR* graded coins in particular.......you will see them surpass pcgs!!!!!!!
and if you think about it i would guarantee STAR * rated coins would trade more than pcgs coins ...........................if they would have their own pricesheet columns in the grey sheet
now think about this.........icg `s biggest problem is that the other 2 services ( ngc and pcgs ) dont want them listed in the pricesheets because all it does is cut into their markets..the lack of being listed really hurts icg.........and i buy their coins all the time because i pick and choose..and put my grading skills on the line against less competition....if they were listed it would indeed be much harder for me
remember....if you wanted to start a grading service you have to fugure out where you fit in...........grade tuffer and you get no submissions...grade too weak and you get no collectors thus no market....grade just a hair below and you can survive....maybe....( the size of the hair is paramount).....there are thousands of properly graded icg coins and are very under appreciated and thus sometimes go begging for a buyer.....TO ME THIS IS OPPORTUNITY........but if you want them to be in ngc or pcgs slabs.....your going to have to crack `em......RARELY does the competion want to cross `em .....its gives them ( icg ) validity which is something the 2 majors dont want to do!!
on another service ( ANACS....the oldest one).....about 5 years ago i saw a very smart dealer buying hundreds of anacs gold slabs.....as it turned out anacs was undergrading way too much of its gold....he quitely bought hundreds and cracked them and upgraded almost all of them into pcgs holders.....he made about 400,000 doing this.....where were you????????? BETTER YET ....WHERE WAS I????.....well i came very late to the party and not only missed dinner but desert too.....all i got was a cup of joe......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
ttyl gregg
ps ......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
one more thing and back to the STAR*...some might have trouble with seeing pq coins...some havent learned the difference yet...some might not ever know the difference.....BUT IF ANACS HAD THE STAR*........DO YOU THINK THAT DEALER WOULD OF MADE 400,000 ......OR DO YOU THINK SOME OF US COLLECTORS WOULD OF SPLIT THE MONEY??????
******** THINK ABOUT IT**********
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
You asked for it! I took these examples of double eagles (your specialty) from the Heritage inventory, not eBay since eBay has too many new and inexperienced collectors that have not yet learned to take the "gospel" of the Kool-Aid with a grain of salt:
1891-S MS-62 NGC: $505 PCGS: $505 1894 MS-63 NGC: $700 PCGS: $700 1896-S MS-63 NGC: $980 PCGS: $1100 (the PCGS coin is denoted JH Exceptional, the NGC is not) 1896-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $505 (the PCGS coin is denoted JH Exceptional, the NGC is not) 1898 MS-62 NGC: $1100 PCGS: $1100 1898-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480 1899 MS-63 NGC: $630 PCGS: $645 (you win this one by $15, or 2.4%) 1899-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480 1901 MS-63 PCGS: $645 PCGS: $620 (hmm...looks like they actually look at the coins in determining prices, the $25 higher price was JH) 1901-S MS-61 NGC: $460 PCGS: $460 1903 MS-63 NGC: $615 PCGS: $615 1903 MS-64 NGC: $1100 PCGS: $1100 1903-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480 1903-S MS-63 NGC: $785 PCGS: $870 (all the PCGS have Make an Offer options with a range of $767-$790, the NGCs do not) 1906-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480 1907 Lib MS-63 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620
And now on to Saints:
1907 MS-62 NGC: $575 PCGS: $575 1909-S MS-63 NGC: $590 PCGS: $590 1910-D MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480 1910-S MS-61 NGC: $460 PCGS: $460 1913 MS-62 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620 1914-D MS-64 NGS: $785 PCGS: $785 1914-D MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535 1914-S MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535 1915-S MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535 1915-S MS-64 NGC: $675 PCGS: $645 (OH! NGC more than PCGS! and the PCGS one even had a Make an Offer!!!) 1922 MS-64 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620 1925 MS-65 NGC: $1025 PCGS: $1025 1926 MS-64 NGC: $585 PCGS: $585 1926 MS-65 NGC: $1075 PCGS: $1050 (OH! Another one! But the NGCs are both JH Exceptional) 1928 MS-64 NGC: $550 PCGS: $585 (but the NGC has no photo while the PCGS does)
Are those enough examples? Or are you just going to sip some more Kool-Aid and stick your head back in the sand? If you'd like, I can go on to the smaller denominations, but as a double eagle collector I doubt you'd be interested. In this segment of the market, it seems people buy coins more often than slabs!
No Heritage doesn't control the market, but they have one of the best inventories of double eagles I've seen, right now they have 220 libs and 109 saints in inventory, not including the auction material. And the inventory listing is the best way to see a premium as it is a fixed price market. eBay gives inexperienced buyers more than enough rope to hang themselves and spend too much on a coin. All you need is one Kool-Aid bidder and you make money! Personally, I could probably build a full-time business buying PCGS coins from Heritage and selling them to people like you, unfortunately there are far fewer people like you than necessary to make it succeed, at least for double eagles.
PS-If I wanted intelligent conversation I'd be talking to EVP, I'm only talking to you for the entertainment value.
The HepKitty was recently in New York on a Doo Wop music hunting trip, I needed to find a store called Doo Wop Shoo Bop and had my little yahoo map, while walking on Wall St. I approached a gentleman and asked for directions on finding some of these streets to get there and he simply replied, "Blow it out of your ass" and he kept on going..... Bet it was this Wallstreetman square...
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>I use PCGS because I dont want to own an overgraded coin! >>
Jeez, I was hoping to avoid this, but I feel compelled to join the fray. I use NGC because I like their holders and they have superior customer service. I also feel their grading is more consistant.
RECENT SUBMISSIONS TO NGC
Raw coins I graded (imagine that!)
1935S Washington MS65 - NGC MS65 1935D Washington MS64 - NGC MS64 1940D Washington MS65 - NGC MS66 1939S Washington MS64 - NGC MS65 1947 Washington MS66 - NGC MS65
ICG ( cracked out and submitted raw )
1936D Merc - ICG MS65 FB - NGC MS64 FB 1929D Merc - ICG MS67 FB - NGC MS66 FB
PCI (old green holder)
1932 Washington PCI MS65 - NGC MS65
ANACS ( cracked out and submitted raw)
1942S Washington ANACS MS66 - NGC MS66
And now....PCGS (again cracked out and submitted raw)
1939 Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65 1947S Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65 1937S Merc PCGS MS65 FB - NGC MS65 (notice no FB!) 1934D Merc PCGS MS65 FB - NGC MS65 (notice no FB!) 1950D Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65 1950S Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65 1945D Washington PCGS MS65 - NGC MS66
The lack of the FB designation on those mercs REALLY hurt. Funny how NGC overgrades isn't it Wallstreetman? Fortunately, they are all beautiful coins and I have no intention of selling them, that's not what I bought them for. I bought them because I LIKE them. I must also admit, that when I purchased the PCGS coins, I bought the HOLDER, which is something I don't usually do. I bought into the CONFIDENCE, however false, that I simply couldn't go wrong buying PCGS slabbed coins. All PCGS graded coins but the 1945D Washington (which upgraded) were purchased online.
Having said all this, I don't dislike PCGS graded coins, nor will I ignorantly dismiss them because of the less than desirable experience I've had with SOME coins they graded. To do so would severely limit my choices when it's time to go coin shopping. The one thing I will never do again however, is to buy the holder rather than the coin. I guess I should thank PCGS for a lesson learned!
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Andy - all those coins that used to be in PCGS holders but now are in NGC holders are overgraded. Please immediately sell them for a huge discount. Or some would have us believe.
Except...if they came out of PCGS holders....doesn't that immediately mean they were at one time premium quality and worth much much more? I just can't handle the implications!
sterilize...imperfections...does not compute....zzzzzaaaaappppp!!! (this is your brain...this is your brain on WallStreetMan logic!)
BUT, I must add...after inserting my own brand of humor above...it seems to me it would be much better to address people's opinions or comments than to get personal. I think it ok to playfully demean a position or way of thinking, but not a board member. So...the comment above is addressed specifically at the idea that WSM advocates and not at WSM.
Ideological diehards will go the way of the Soviet Union. It's laughable (almost) the gaps in their logic, reasoning, persuasion and attentiveness (to others) from chronologically and biologically fully grown adults.
Messrs. Ostrich-head and Ebay-stat-head are truly two of God's ``special'' creations... I wonder if God broke the mould after these two, or might we be blessed with more of them.
We're all commenting on his modus operandus. I don't know the guy; for all I know, he could be the salt of the earth. Or, he could just have his head buried in the salt of the earth. Whatever...
Oh, yeah, and I'm also commenting on his advocacy.
That would be about right. I know NGC is tougher for FS Jeffersons (they want six steps apposed to PCGS's five). Maybe the bands needed to not only be fully split but rounded for NGC to give the FSB?
TDN - I agree wholeheartedly with you about challenging ideas rather than board members, but there is a certain logic in something my grandmother once told me after I said something that was patently uninformed. She said;
"Darlin, there's no sense in being stupid unless you can show it!"
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
I would say that the 37S is debatably FB, but upon closer inspection the 34D isn't. At first glance, I wouldn't have (and didn't) notice it but the bands are not quite split on the left side of the bands closest to the branch that almost touches them. The 37S's bands are flat and and the split is VERY shallow, but I think it's still split. I've heard NGC takes the "roundness" of the bands pretty seriously, although I don't know for sure their exact criteria. One thing is for sure though, both coins were inspected VERY closely.
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
I wholeheartedly agree with the challenging of ideas vs. individuals, but alas I am guilty of the last, and freely confess it to all of you. It seems that patience is not one of my virtues and hence I can at times resort to the childish personal digs. I will be the first to admit that I don't know everything, but I know a lot about a few things, and even those things I make mistakes rather frequently. Next time I'll just stop with providing empirical evidence to support my view or counter the view I believe to be in error.
PS-Dragon, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Delete this thread and put it out of its misery!!!!!
<< <i>Its getting old! Im tired of getting dragged into these because someone puts NGC on equal footing with PCGS, I dont want newbies to be filled with B.S. >>
Comments
Recently, I was walking by (because it was near the NGC booth) the PCGS booth when I heard this elderly woman telling Stacey that she had some coins to submit. From what I could tell, these were cheap-o coins and probably weren't worth the $99 for signing up. Anyway, this elderly woman said that she was submitting to PCGS because she heard they were the best. She then asked Stacey, ``You're the best, right?''
Ask anyone with a MBA in Marketing. Perception matters a lot. Marketing matters a lot. Otherwise, there'd be no MBA program in Marketing, and the B-school grads would be filled with technocrats. You can't gauge what the public knows or what it thinks it knows based solely on numbers. Those silly Ebay stats about PCGS bringing higher prices... Those numbers can be quite misleading in this context. Ever think that that stat could be self-fulfilling? Imagine this:
``Say, I heard that PCGS coins are the best.''
``Yeah, I heard that too. I guess they'd cost more.''
...
``Say, these PCGS coins sure are expensive. I heard they were the best.''
``Yup, I heard that too. I guess they are the best.''
People should realize that a lot of the prices realized on Ebay are due to folks who aren't seasoned veterans and must rely on the judgement of others (like the services), or they're solely in it for the Registry competition -- which is more about numbers than about coins.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
al h.
You're getting greedy.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Evillage, what the heck are you talking about? Where did all this buy and sell, high and low B.S. come from? Yes, I read your other thread, and please refrain from name calling! Who said that I only buy slabbed coins? I use PCGS because I dont want to own an overgraded coin! I wouldnt want to sell a coin to a member or anyone else and have them say "Wallstreetman sells overgraded coins"! 80 % of my coins I made myself! This isnt to say you cant buy PCGS and sell for a profit. I made some good money buying coins from Tulving and selling on Ebay , but emailing sellers and going around Ebay is by far more profitable. Heres what I like to tell people, "Dont wait until you need the money to sell something and never be in a hurry to buy"! There is money to be made from people who dont follow these simple rules! Also, EVERYTHING I OWN IS FOR SALE All THE TIME, IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT! I dont place sentimental value on anything! I can provide proof if you need it!
What name did I call you?
I know what names I would like to call you, but that would be wrong, wouldn't it?
BTW, all that glitters is not gold!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
also i was chatting with i guy who didnt like the ngc STAR*......he said who are they to tell everyone what a premium coin it is ( to me ngc should know as they have seen millions of coins and they want people to know for those that dont ... what premium coins look like) ....i told him simply....."spoken like a man with boxes of average coins....for if you have done a great job in your collecting you would love it because all your coins would warrant them...now on the other hand if you have bought average coins and shopped the price only...you will be told by your lack of STARS*...AND THE WORLD WILL KNOW....and you will be exposed!!!"
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>Russ, a grade is an opinion, and yes, the premium is because PCGS is more conservative than NGC! >>
WSM,
Thank you for repeating what I just said. However, that was not your original assertion. You stated that the price premium exists because the majority of collectors AGREE with PCGS's grading standards. That is not the same thing.
Russ, NCNE
This is not to infer that PCGS is "better". NGC seems to be more consistent in grading. But the fact is that PCGS is grading sooo tight that prices for many of the coins in their holder have gone thru the roof.
Sight seen coins might trade at different levels due to one service undergrading coins. However, that doesn't mean that service X coins bring more money. The question really is: Does a coin in a PCGS MS65 slab bring more money than the IDENTICAL coin in an NGC MS65 slab? I say no.
Do super PQ and undergraded coins in PCGS slabs bring more money than standard NGC coins. Sure. The same is true about PQ NGC coins. Just because PCGS has decided to undergrade coins doesn't mean coins in their slabs bring more money. It just means that undergraded coins in their slabs bring more money than properly graded coins in other slabs. Therefore the slab is useless and the coin is priced and not the slab.
>>>>>This keeps those published percentages very close when in reality PCGS coins are bringing much more than NGC coins right now because PCGS is undergrading severely to the market. >>>>>>>>
you are exactly right.......to me ngc properly grades coins and pcgs undergardes too many in comparing the 2 services........and i love to pick out the undergraded ones...then send them to ngc for proper grading...some go up and rightfully so but most dont ( i recently put all my commems into ngc holders and i had 14 coins in pcgs holders....not one ungraded....boo...i did get an upgrade on a crossover on one of my icg coins though....in the future if i sell ( which i do because i am always upgrading ) i either find someone who knows what the coin`s grade is and pays for it in an ngc holder or if the buyer wants i`ll put it into a pcgs slab which is sometimes a grade higher than it was when i bought it......and i make the spread...the loser is the previous pcgs owner who had an undergraded coin .....compliments of pcgs`s policy of increasing their revenues at the unknowing`s expense
>>>>>i either find someone who knows what the coin`s grade is and pays for it in an ngc holder>>>>>>
here in lies a big what i call the " jones theory" ( you know drinking that poison koolaid).....i have a commem buddy who for years was a pcgs nut ......and drank the koolaid......as i upgraded i gave him the first shot at a few of my dups.....they were in ngc holders....each opportunity he passed.........one coin is a hawaiian where i think i know where the top 5 are.....i had the # 2 coin ( imho)....i unbelievably fell into the moose of all mooses...thus my other coin was available...i offered it to him....he passed........a sharpie dealer knew what i had.....and their customer had what i called the # 5 coin...they quickly jumped on my coin and improved their customers set from 5 to 2.....and put theirr old # 5 coin up for sale for 4000 more than my buddy could of bought the # 2 coin for.........i also offered him a monster columbian in 66 at twice sheet in a ngc holder....he passed.........he now owns the coin but he didnt buy the coin from me....the guy i sold it to put it into a pcgs slab....and the price was 3 1/2 times the sheet.....after way too many of these scenarios he finally got wise...........and last show he was submitting coins at ngc..........he just paid five figures ( nearly 15 k) for a monster ngc 67 ark......he has now arrived and is detoxed from the koolaid !!!
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Finally, here is a nice photo of WSM, the PCGS Shark going after those of us stupid enough to challenge his beliefs...
anyway here is somethings for you to think about ...its a post of interest
>>>>>>The star in my mind is a flashing sign saying "take a closer look">>>>>>>>
you are exactly right ...........i firmly believe its tool by which ngc helps level the playing field for the collectors and takes away some of the " dealer advantage"....thus by having the benefit of the tool i feel ngc fully plans on it closing the gap on pcgs in the market place as a whole company........and to be frank ......i feel the STAR* graded coins in particular.......you will see them surpass pcgs!!!!!!!
and if you think about it i would guarantee STAR * rated coins would trade more than pcgs coins ...........................if they would have their own pricesheet columns in the grey sheet
now think about this.........icg `s biggest problem is that the other 2 services ( ngc and pcgs ) dont want them listed in the pricesheets because all it does is cut into their markets..the lack of being listed really hurts icg.........and i buy their coins all the time because i pick and choose..and put my grading skills on the line against less competition....if they were listed it would indeed be much harder for me
remember....if you wanted to start a grading service you have to fugure out where you fit in...........grade tuffer and you get no submissions...grade too weak and you get no collectors thus no market....grade just a hair below and you can survive....maybe....( the size of the hair is paramount).....there are thousands of properly graded icg coins and are very under appreciated and thus sometimes go begging for a buyer.....TO ME THIS IS OPPORTUNITY........but if you want them to be in ngc or pcgs slabs.....your going to have to crack `em......RARELY does the competion want to cross `em .....its gives them ( icg ) validity which is something the 2 majors dont want to do!!
on another service ( ANACS....the oldest one).....about 5 years ago i saw a very smart dealer buying hundreds of anacs gold slabs.....as it turned out anacs was undergrading way too much of its gold....he quitely bought hundreds and cracked them and upgraded almost all of them into pcgs holders.....he made about 400,000 doing this.....where were you????????? BETTER YET ....WHERE WAS I????.....well i came very late to the party and not only missed dinner but desert too.....all i got was a cup of joe......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
ttyl
gregg
ps ......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
one more thing and back to the STAR*...some might have trouble with seeing pq coins...some havent learned the difference yet...some might not ever know the difference.....BUT IF ANACS HAD THE STAR*........DO YOU THINK THAT DEALER WOULD OF MADE 400,000 ......OR DO YOU THINK SOME OF US COLLECTORS WOULD OF SPLIT THE MONEY??????
******** THINK ABOUT IT**********
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
1891-S MS-62 NGC: $505 PCGS: $505
1894 MS-63 NGC: $700 PCGS: $700
1896-S MS-63 NGC: $980 PCGS: $1100 (the PCGS coin is denoted JH Exceptional, the NGC is not)
1896-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $505 (the PCGS coin is denoted JH Exceptional, the NGC is not)
1898 MS-62 NGC: $1100 PCGS: $1100
1898-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480
1899 MS-63 NGC: $630 PCGS: $645 (you win this one by $15, or 2.4%)
1899-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480
1901 MS-63 PCGS: $645 PCGS: $620 (hmm...looks like they actually look at the coins in determining prices, the $25 higher price was JH)
1901-S MS-61 NGC: $460 PCGS: $460
1903 MS-63 NGC: $615 PCGS: $615
1903 MS-64 NGC: $1100 PCGS: $1100
1903-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480
1903-S MS-63 NGC: $785 PCGS: $870 (all the PCGS have Make an Offer options with a range of $767-$790, the NGCs do not)
1906-S MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480
1907 Lib MS-63 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620
And now on to Saints:
1907 MS-62 NGC: $575 PCGS: $575
1909-S MS-63 NGC: $590 PCGS: $590
1910-D MS-62 NGC: $480 PCGS: $480
1910-S MS-61 NGC: $460 PCGS: $460
1913 MS-62 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620
1914-D MS-64 NGS: $785 PCGS: $785
1914-D MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535
1914-S MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535
1915-S MS-63 NGC: $535 PCGS: $535
1915-S MS-64 NGC: $675 PCGS: $645 (OH! NGC more than PCGS! and the PCGS one even had a Make an Offer!!!)
1922 MS-64 NGC: $620 PCGS: $620
1925 MS-65 NGC: $1025 PCGS: $1025
1926 MS-64 NGC: $585 PCGS: $585
1926 MS-65 NGC: $1075 PCGS: $1050 (OH! Another one! But the NGCs are both JH Exceptional)
1928 MS-64 NGC: $550 PCGS: $585 (but the NGC has no photo while the PCGS does)
Are those enough examples? Or are you just going to sip some more Kool-Aid and stick your head back in the sand? If you'd like, I can go on to the smaller denominations, but as a double eagle collector I doubt you'd be interested. In this segment of the market, it seems people buy coins more often than slabs!
PS-If I wanted intelligent conversation I'd be talking to EVP, I'm only talking to you for the entertainment value.
If *you* want to have intelligent conversation, you'd have to be a different person. And stop crying, you little baby!
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Why, Jeff, thank you very much. But, it feels weird that I'd actually have to be defended from WSM...
Something to consider: when I act immature here, it is by choice. With WSM, it is by nature.
Hey Jeff, do you think the ostrich's head is no longer in the sand? Yet, the big dumb flightless bird still cannot see! LOL!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>YOUR PATHETIC >>
My pathetic what?
<< <i>and no apologies this time! >>
I wasn't really planning to apologize, so Okay.
<< <i>Dont forget to add Heritages outrageous fees! >>
If you bothered to learn anything before you type, you'd find that the fees only apply to auctions, not to purchases from inventory.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
LOL! So new to us, and so soon taking side! Well, at least I approve of your comment! LOL! ROFLMAO!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>I use PCGS because I dont want to own an overgraded coin! >>
Jeez, I was hoping to avoid this, but I feel compelled to join the fray. I use NGC because I like their holders and they have superior customer service. I also feel their grading is more consistant.
RECENT SUBMISSIONS TO NGC
Raw coins I graded (imagine that!)
1935S Washington MS65 - NGC MS65
1935D Washington MS64 - NGC MS64
1940D Washington MS65 - NGC MS66
1939S Washington MS64 - NGC MS65
1947 Washington MS66 - NGC MS65
ICG ( cracked out and submitted raw )
1936D Merc - ICG MS65 FB - NGC MS64 FB
1929D Merc - ICG MS67 FB - NGC MS66 FB
PCI (old green holder)
1932 Washington PCI MS65 - NGC MS65
ANACS ( cracked out and submitted raw)
1942S Washington ANACS MS66 - NGC MS66
And now....PCGS (again cracked out and submitted raw)
1939 Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65
1947S Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65
1937S Merc PCGS MS65 FB - NGC MS65 (notice no FB!)
1934D Merc PCGS MS65 FB - NGC MS65 (notice no FB!)
1950D Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65
1950S Washington PCGS MS66 - NGC MS65
1945D Washington PCGS MS65 - NGC MS66
The lack of the FB designation on those mercs REALLY hurt. Funny how NGC overgrades isn't it Wallstreetman? Fortunately, they are all beautiful coins and I have no intention of selling them, that's not what I bought them for. I bought them because I LIKE them. I must also admit, that when I purchased the PCGS coins, I bought the HOLDER, which is something I don't usually do. I bought into the CONFIDENCE, however false, that I simply couldn't go wrong buying PCGS slabbed coins. All PCGS graded coins but the 1945D Washington (which upgraded) were purchased online.
Having said all this, I don't dislike PCGS graded coins, nor will I ignorantly dismiss them because of the less than desirable experience I've had with SOME coins they graded. To do so would severely limit my choices when it's time to go coin shopping. The one thing I will never do again however, is to buy the holder rather than the coin. I guess I should thank PCGS for a lesson learned!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Except...if they came out of PCGS holders....doesn't that immediately mean they were at one time premium quality and worth much much more? I just can't handle the implications!
sterilize...imperfections...does not compute....zzzzzaaaaappppp!!! (this is your brain...this is your brain on WallStreetMan logic!)
BUT, I must add...after inserting my own brand of humor above...it seems to me it would be much better to address people's opinions or comments than to get personal. I think it ok to playfully demean a position or way of thinking, but not a board member. So...the comment above is addressed specifically at the idea that WSM advocates and not at WSM.
Messrs. Ostrich-head and Ebay-stat-head are truly two of God's ``special'' creations... I wonder if God broke the mould after these two, or might we be blessed with more of them.
Gotta love dull pins in the cushion!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
We're all commenting on his modus operandus. I don't know the guy; for all I know, he could be the salt of the earth. Or, he could just have his head buried in the salt of the earth. Whatever...
Oh, yeah, and I'm also commenting on his advocacy.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You've got me curious now if they are!
peacockcoins
Don't make me have to delete this thread.....cause I will if I have to.
Dragon
Maybe NGC has tighter criteria for FSB than PCGS. Check out this thread from the NGC site:
THREAD
It's about distinctions between PCGS and NGC regarding being fully struck.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Maybe the bands needed to not only be fully split but rounded for NGC to give the FSB?
peacockcoins
"Darlin, there's no sense in being stupid unless you can show it!"
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
I would say that the 37S is debatably FB, but upon closer inspection the 34D isn't. At first glance, I wouldn't have (and didn't) notice it but the bands are not quite split on the left side of the bands closest to the branch that almost touches them. The 37S's bands are flat and and the split is VERY shallow, but I think it's still split. I've heard NGC takes the "roundness" of the bands pretty seriously, although I don't know for sure their exact criteria. One thing is for sure though, both coins were inspected VERY closely.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
PS-Dragon, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Delete this thread and put it out of its misery!!!!!
<< <i>Its getting old! Im tired of getting dragged into these because someone puts NGC on equal footing with PCGS, I dont want newbies to be filled with B.S. >>
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
ps nice flasing star....in china kids might have a seziure on something like that
BrianJr