I read it Ricardo. Kennedys weren't mentioned at all. I kinda like them being under the radar. As for the grading services, EVP had it right. Each of the services offers different value-add. I like each for different things. I personally am glad the market is healthy enough to support at least three services (PCGS, NGC, and ANACS). I hope they all do well.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>This is my first post in this great forum and what a debate, well, Lucy can settle this real easy! I've got 'something' that PCGS & NGC can both grade! And trust me, it'll demand a high premium regardless of the slab Daddy-o!
LucyBop the Hepkitty is here. >>
But I'll bet it's not made out of GOLD
stman
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Given the recent move towards censorship by WSM, and since I have personally violated the 30 day moratorium several times myself, perhaps we should send our posts to WSM via PM prior to posting them on the public forum, that way we can be sure that what we say matches the party line better.
there's only one true way to buy the coin and not the holder. it requires the purchaser to not see the holder and insert at all so as to avoid any bias, conscious or subconscious. that's the only problem i have with the whole "buy the coin not the holder" point of view. i think it would be interesting to go to a show or a shop where all the slab inserts and holders are covered leaving only the coin viewable. wouldn't that be a test of a collectors metal? imagine looking at all the slabs in that fashion and having the seller qoute a price that you could agree to on whatever ones you wished to purchase, only exposing the holder, insert and slabbed grade after the sale was consummated. TRUE buying of the coin and not the holder. in effect, buying raw.
I had an idea for that after my last fun auctions on eBay. Right now, I have 4 97-P JFKs at PCGS, and when they come back, I plan on putting one up for bid on eBay, showing only the coin, not the insert, starting at face with no reserve and see what happens. I think it will be a fun experiment, especially since I bet the buyer will end up pleasantly surprised by the number on the holder since they will likely underbid based solely on the coin.
EVP, it's the perfect example, unbiased and a large sampling
Hi Crito,
Yes, you're correct in saying that the Ebay example is unbiased and is a large sampling. My reluctance to fully embrace it mostly has to do with it's being a sight-unseen market. I know there's value in that market, but it's hard to drive home the coin vs holder notion to newbies in an idealistic way.
Funny you should say that, Ive always been a Mopar Man! I spent six years building a 70 Challenger that was show and go, the rearend was chromed from drum to drum and its best time was 10.57, just to give you an idea.
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
there's only one true way to buy the coin and not the holder. it requires the purchaser to not see the holder and insert at all so as to avoid any bias, conscious or subconscious. that's the only problem i have with the whole "buy the coin not the holder" point of view. i think it would be interesting to go to a show or a shop where all the slab inserts and holders are covered leaving only the coin viewable. wouldn't that be a test of a collectors metal? imagine looking at all the slabs in that fashion and having the seller qoute a price that you could agree to on whatever ones you wished to purchase, only exposing the holder, insert and slabbed grade after the sale was consummated. TRUE buying of the coin and not the holder. in effect, buying raw.
Honestly, Keets, this is exactly what I *try* to do. I know that I'm not 100% successful, but I do try. And, I try to solicit the opinions of my friends as well. And, they look at the coin first and the holder second.
We do it this way for a couple of reasons: 1. Does it have the requisite eye appeal? My friends and I aren't grade hunters; we're eye appeal hunters. 2. We don't want to bias ourselves by the insert. We examine the coin, mentally assign it a grade and a value. Then we go forward.
Like I said, we're not 100% successful, but I'm very happy with the quality of our acquisitions.
EVP
PS We weren't like this in the beginning. It took us a while to get like this, so I won't judge others who don't utilize this approach.
WSM and I agree on something!!! My first car was a 66 Chrysler Newport, I love the old boats! But I always respect the old Dodge muscle.
Dog, I will post a thread on the forum when I list it, I don't even know the pops of 97-P JFKs so I don't even know what it would take to make this a pricey modern, all I can say is that I cherry picked these 4 from 2 unc rolls of 97-Ps, so they are at the very least very nice uncs.
that's the direction i'm heading towards but it takes a lot of patience and discipline. more often than not i see the insert and work from there. if only we can get the dealers at shows to have their coins with the reverse side up it would be easy to pick up the slab with a thumb covering the grade info.
on the positive side, there are always coins in a display case that jump out at me when i'm just looking around, and that's a total eye appeal thing. for me that's the best part of going to a show because it never fails that the ones i'm drawn to are coins i have no interest in before hand. last show it was an NGC MS62 bust half, 1820/19 with the most awesome toning rings.
tell me, what's your trick for avoiding the glance at the insert till you can get it covered in your hand? is it just a matter of discipline?
keets, I never have had much of a preference for who slabbed the coin. So its easy for me to ignore the slab. I totally focus in on the coin, period. If I have question about the grade I have found the guys I deal with are forthcoming about the coin. Maybe its because I've known them for 4 years and I have spent some bucks with them. And you are absolutely right about finding coins with eye appeal that you never thought you would have an interest in. Slabs are slabs, plastic, they aren't gods that we should worship. After spending a few months here, I have gotten a tremendous insight into how our ancestors began to worship different things as gods. Where is Moses when we need him?
tell me, what's your trick for avoiding the glance at the insert till you can get it covered in your hand? is it just a matter of discipline?
This is fairly easy for me. As I walk along the aisles, I walk far enough from the cases that I can't make out the grade on the insert. (Actually, I can't make out the date/mint either!) But, I can make out what type of coin it is. And when I lean in to see the coin better, my eyes are still generally focused on the coin, and by then I've already decided if the eye appeal warrants further inspection.
This part is even easier for me because I almost always look at dollars. Pre-Morgans, so I'm not bothered by row after row of identically looking coins! When I used to buy Morgans, Peace, Walkers and Bens, I would buy 'em primarily raw. So, they really are raw! (They go into an album...)
This method, btw, sucks for Morgans and the like. I have bought slabbed Morgans before. I went to Gus Tiso's table and pulled out a bunch of dates in the approx grade range that I wanted. Then I'd compare the coins of the same date/mint to each other and pick the best one. This method is kind of wasted with Gus' inventory. His eye and knowledge is much better than mine, and I'll never be able to cherrypick quality from him.
"tell me, what's your trick for avoiding the glance at the insert till you can get it covered in your hand? is it just a matter of discipline?" I know what a Morgan grades as soon as I pick it up. Then I look at the insert to see if PCGS graded it right. If it grades lower than what I think I ask myself what did I miss, and look for problems. If it grades higher than what I think, I can see the problems PCGS missed. If it grades what I think it should I look again to make sure. Then I decide if it's low or high end and how bad I want it.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
As far as looking at the insert: I do I suppose just to get an idea what I'll have to pay before I ask the dealer. If I like it enough for the asking price I'll buy.... in that sense, technically the grade doesn't mean much to me other than a guide to what I'll have to pay. If the coin has a grade that I know is far too high to pay for often I won't even bother to look at the coin.
This debate IS getting old but the plain fact of the matter is, if I have a PCGS Lincoln in MS67 RD and someone else has the same coin in NGC MS67 RD, and we both go to sell them...Guess what?... In a purely financial sense, I win!
This does not mean that the PCGS coin is "better" but it will command, on average, a higher market price.
Just MHO....
Coppernicus
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Lets be honest, PCGS commands more money like Coppernicus says, why do you think this is? What does common sense tell you? It tells me that the majority of the numismatic world agrees more with PCGSs opinion than NGCs!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
Yes WSM, you are absolutely right! PCGS is the greatest, they always grade correctly, no other service compares, and heaven forbid you ever pay more than face for a raw coin!
I never said PCGS was perfect, no one is! I just call it like I see it, I try real hard to be honest and fair. If you knew me, you would know that I can always be counted on. Im sorry if I sounded off earlier, sometimes I get real defensive! I just framed my certificate, and I have to say that Im glad I broke away from the $20 Gold for a while, but Im back to resume my search of these beautiful coins. Maybe I will start seeing the better half of the NGC coins that you are talking about! Im looking at the MS63 to 64 range now. Do you have any for sale? Although I do still need 89, 91, 92, and 98 in $50 Gold.
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
No big deal WSM, we can all be defensive at times. The only question I would as you is how much of the PCGS premium is due to better grading, vs a strong reputation for previous grading standards, vs a strong marketing program?
These guys are always thinking, when it comes to the coin business, maybe some of the premium is due to marketing! Their stock would do a lot better if they would dump the other services! Like I said, " you dont have to be perfect", just better than the next guy! As far as previous grading standards, well I try not to break it up, I look at the whole!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
Awww...who really cares if one's better than the other?!
What really matters is: How much enjoyment did you get out of owning the coin while you were its caretaker and how much did you sell it vs how much you paid when your stewardship is over.
When it comes time to sell, the dealer/friend/auction patron is going to look at the coin and not the holder to evaluate its worth. In that event, and mindful of your personal enjoyment, the way to do the absolute best is to look for a coin who's price is less than its value. I submit that it doesn't matter which holder it's in to be able to take advantage of this disparity.
God, I can't believe I'm commenting on this topic again... I am a glutton for punishment!
Much of this topic is centered around a notion of ``better'' between the two services, yet no one's really tried to precisely defined what ``better'' means. I think it is this vagueness that's causing a lot of us to speak in circles.
Some say that ``better'' implies grading. Others imply customer service. Let's see what else: appearance of holder, user-friendliness of message board. Last, but not least, some imply financial reward.
For the record, I like NGC's customer service over PCGS's. For everything else, I am neutral. Sure, PCGS has a rep for grading stricter. So what? That's just different. I like NGC's holders more; better contrast with my mostly toned coins. So what? The holders are just different. Yada, yada, yada.
Financial reward: IMO, this is a surprisingly big area of contention. No one in his right mind would contend that PCGS coins bring more in a sight-unseen market. And, in many (most?) instances, I think in the sight-seen market as well. Whether the reasons for this is valid or not is irrelevent to me at this moment.
However, I still wonder if this makes PCGS at better service in terms of financial reward... To me, ``better'' in this case means that I get much more than I put in. So if I buy something for $1 and sell for $3, I'm very happy with my 200% profit. So if PCGS coins bring more, doesn't that mean that you have to pay more to buy 'em? (And, if NGC sells for less, you pay less.) Basically, what I'm saying is that if a coin is valued higher, then you pay more and can sell for more. So how does that equate to increased profits?
I can think of two ways to try to maximize your profit in this PCGS vs NGC financial reward scenario:
1. Buy raw modern coins and try to make high-grade PCGS slabs. 2. Buy high-end (for the money spent, not for the printed grade on the insert) coins in other-brand holders and try to get them into PCGS slabs.
This leaves you with a bunch of PCGS slabs that you can sell at higher prices due to branding. But, this also means that you have to stop buying PCGS slabs because branding minimizes your profit margin.
Anyway, this is why I preach ``buy the coin, not the holder'' because I know that if I'm getting ready to sell, I'll try to take advantage of current market forces and, for example, try to maximize the grades of my coins in the best possible holder.
<< <i>This debate IS getting old but the plain fact of the matter is, if I have a PCGS Lincoln in MS67 RD and someone else has the same coin in NGC MS67 RD, and we both go to sell them...Guess what?... In a purely financial sense, I win!
This does not mean that the PCGS coin is "better" but it will command, on average, a higher market price.
Just MHO....
Coppernicus >>
Not if you paid much more for the PCGS coin than someone else paid for the NGC coin to begin with! You have to pay more to start out with the PCGS coin. Making money is not just about how much you can sell something for. The guy can sell the 1933 Saint for $5 million (and it would still be the second largest price ever for a coin) and it would be a huge loss. The guy that paid $69,000 for the PCGS 1953-S Franklin lost over $30,000 on the PCGS coin.
If PCGS coins sell for more money, this is the same as saying you can buy NGC coins for less. The people with good eyes buy the NGC coin for less, get it into a PCGS holder so they can sell the same coin for more to the group that equates the plastic to value. Others buy PCGS coins, put them into NGC holders and sell the same coin for more. There is no right way to do it, it all depends on the coin.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
To extend on what EVP said: Who is better depends on what you define as better.
WSM said:
<< <i>Lets be honest, PCGS commands more money like Coppernicus says, why do you think this is? What does common sense tell you? It tells me that the majority of the numismatic world agrees more with PCGSs opinion than NGCs! >>
That is not necessarily true. The reason PCGS coin gets more for the grade is that the "majority of the numismatice world agrees" that PCGS is more conservative. That doesn't mean they are "better". It simply means their standards is tighter...at least with Lincolns as you've mentioned.
IMO, the "better" service is the one that is most CONSISTANT with their grading NOT necessarily the one that is tighter. For a long time I always felt NGC was more consistant than PCGS. I'm not at all sure anymore as I believe there are many series where I would NOT label either services as anything near consistant.
I've mentioned this before, So you pay less for ngc compared to pcgs and get less at selling time. You pay more for pcgs compared to ngc and get more at selling time. To me this works out the same?
stman
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
For all you people drinking the PCGS Kool-aid, you are clearly thinking one-dimensionally if your profit potential is dependent on the holder. It seems almost ridiculous to have to say, but the real determinant of the profit on a coin is the coin itself. By far the best way to make a profit in coins (if profit is your goal) is to buy undervalued coins when they are cheap and sell them when they become more popular. Today toned coins are all the rage it seems, but a few years ago they were not as popular, well if you bought them a few years ago and sold them today the vast majority of the price was due to the coins involved. I remember a post by another member that collects early and seated dollars, and he said that since early dollars were shooting higher, he stopped buying and started focusing on seated dollars since they were cheaper. Think of cameo proofs, 10 years ago, only those with the foresight to see how undervalued they were bought them, now the cameo proofs of the 50s and 60s are selling for huge premiums.
Finally, once again I must reiterate that the preference for a particular holder is very dependent on the series. I mainly collect double eagles, and although my collection has increased in value by about 40% over the last year, that is mostly due to the move in gold prices from $270 to $315. There is very little premium for PCGS in this market, and what premium there was seems to be shrinking. I remember looking at the Heritage inventory in the past and there used to be $10-20 premiums for PCGS holders, and I was surprised to find as I looked just now, one after the other, same date, same grade Saints were the SAME price! So I guess it might be a good idea for me to buy up all those PCGS pieces and sell them to folks like WSM at a nice profit. But in the real world, it really no longer makes any financial sense to try to cross an NGC slab to a PCGS slab at this point since you'd just be throwing the grading fee out the window for nothing. Of course this is the case for what I collect, it may be quite different for other series, but unlike the collectors of those series where PCGS is preferred, I will not try to generalize across all series.
your logic is sound unless you take a look at things from a percentage basis. all things being equal---which, BTW, they hardly ever are---if a PCGS and NGC coin are bought and sold at a price relationship that stays the same at the point of sale, the PCGS coin will always net a larger profit, and i think this is the way that most of us look at it. here's a wide open example. assume you pay $50 for the NGC coin and $100 for the PCGS coin. if the sale relationship is the same, twice as much for the PCGS coin, you'll always come out ahead. and at the same time, i'd assume that if you were to sell at a loss, the PCGS coin would be at less of a loss on a percentage basis.
in your last post you mentioned that the guy who bought the franklin lost money. that has me confused unless it was sold recently and i missed it. what were you meaning there, that he lost money by buying a PCGS coin as opposed to an NGC?
in your last post you mentioned that the guy who bought the franklin lost money. that has me confused unless it was sold recently and i missed it. what were you meaning there, that he lost money by buying a PCGS coin as opposed to an NGC?
That, unfortunately for the poor sap who took the loss, is true. I was there when he bought the coin at somewhere around $70K, and I was there when the coin closed at nearly half the price he bought it for. I believe both auctions were by Heritage, but certainly the 2nd one was by Heritage. And, I seem to remember that it sold the 2nd time to a book bidder.
I distinctly remember that there were huge murmurs going through the room each time after the hammer fell. People whispered at the unbelievable price and people whispered at the huge loss.
Regardless of how this pertains to this thread, you gotta feel for the chap!
that franklin sure has been leading an active social life these last few years. purchased for somewhere in the vicinity of $20K and held for 3 years to be sold for $69K and held for about a year and a half with another sale at $30K!!! i wonder what the new owner plans on doing with it? it's kinda like stock sales where the broker ends up with all the money. heritage sure has done well through all the speculation on that coin.
your logic is sound unless you take a look at things from a percentage basis. all things being equal---which, BTW, they hardly ever are---if a PCGS and NGC coin are bought and sold at a price relationship that stays the same at the point of sale, the PCGS coin will always net a larger profit, and i think this is the way that most of us look at it. here's a wide open example. assume you pay $50 for the NGC coin and $100 for the PCGS coin. if the sale relationship is the same, twice as much for the PCGS coin, you'll always come out ahead. and at the same time, i'd assume that if you were to sell at a loss, the PCGS coin would be at less of a loss on a percentage basis.
Uh hello keets, whose logic is off? If you pay $50 for an NGC and sell it for a $100 you made $50, if buy a PCGS for $100 and sell it for $200 you made a hundred, right? The problem with your logic is that you could have bought (2) coins in NGC holders for the same $100 you paid for the PCGS coin. 2X$50 still equals a hundred. Best you do stick with PCGS coins, the math is simpler.
Irish Mike - In answer to your question, Where is Moses when we need him? He is currently eating a large bowel of chicken soup with a matza ball and noodles, at Canters Deli on fairfax in LA. Bear
EVP - When you have an in with the big guy or gal upstairs, then you get to eat at all the best Deli spots all at the same time. Boy, I wish I could do that. Bear
<< <i>Okay, everyone gets one last post and we call it quites for at least 30 days! Make it a good one! Remember, you cant respond for 30 days, you have to hold it in! >>
OK people, how is this for a middle of the road settlement. No politician in Washington, of either party , will speak about anything for the next 30 days. Bear
<< <i>It tells me that the majority of the numismatic world agrees more with PCGSs opinion than NGCs! >>
That is an assumption based on facts not in evidence. It is far more likely that PCGS slabs command higher prices because the perception is that they grade more strictly, NOT because the majority agrees with their grading practices.
In point of fact, I'd guess that the majority actually disagrees. Not only is PCGS inconsistent (out of 18 crackouts I've done so far, the grade went up on 12), their current grading standards do not adhere to their own published guidelines or those of the ANA.
<< <i>Irish Mike - In answer to your question, Where is Moses when we need him? He is currently eating a large bowel of chicken soup with a matza ball and noodles, at Canters Deli on fairfax in LA. Bear >>
Bear, this is one of my favorite deli's.
stman
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Comments
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>This is my first post in this great forum and what a debate, well, Lucy can settle this real easy! I've got 'something' that PCGS & NGC can both grade! And trust me, it'll demand a high premium regardless of the slab Daddy-o!
LucyBop the Hepkitty is here. >>
But I'll bet it's not made out of GOLD
stman
there's only one true way to buy the coin and not the holder. it requires the purchaser to not see the holder and insert at all so as to avoid any bias, conscious or subconscious. that's the only problem i have with the whole "buy the coin not the holder" point of view. i think it would be interesting to go to a show or a shop where all the slab inserts and holders are covered leaving only the coin viewable. wouldn't that be a test of a collectors metal? imagine looking at all the slabs in that fashion and having the seller qoute a price that you could agree to on whatever ones you wished to purchase, only exposing the holder, insert and slabbed grade after the sale was consummated. TRUE buying of the coin and not the holder. in effect, buying raw.
al h.
I had an idea for that after my last fun auctions on eBay. Right now, I have 4 97-P JFKs at PCGS, and when they come back, I plan on putting one up for bid on eBay, showing only the coin, not the insert, starting at face with no reserve and see what happens. I think it will be a fun experiment, especially since I bet the buyer will end up pleasantly surprised by the number on the holder since they will likely underbid based solely on the coin.
Hi Crito,
Yes, you're correct in saying that the Ebay example is unbiased and is a large sampling. My reluctance to fully embrace it mostly has to do with it's being a sight-unseen market. I know there's value in that market, but it's hard to drive home the coin vs holder notion to newbies in an idealistic way.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Honestly, Keets, this is exactly what I *try* to do. I know that I'm not 100% successful, but I do try. And, I try to solicit the opinions of my friends as well. And, they look at the coin first and the holder second.
We do it this way for a couple of reasons:
1. Does it have the requisite eye appeal? My friends and I aren't grade hunters; we're eye appeal hunters.
2. We don't want to bias ourselves by the insert. We examine the coin, mentally assign it a grade and a value. Then we go forward.
Like I said, we're not 100% successful, but I'm very happy with the quality of our acquisitions.
EVP
PS We weren't like this in the beginning. It took us a while to get like this, so I won't judge others who don't utilize this approach.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Dog, I will post a thread on the forum when I list it, I don't even know the pops of 97-P JFKs so I don't even know what it would take to make this a pricey modern, all I can say is that I cherry picked these 4 from 2 unc rolls of 97-Ps, so they are at the very least very nice uncs.
Sittin' in a Dodge
S-L-A-B-B-I-N-G
that's the direction i'm heading towards but it takes a lot of patience and discipline. more often than not i see the insert and work from there. if only we can get the dealers at shows to have their coins with the reverse side up it would be easy to pick up the slab with a thumb covering the grade info.
on the positive side, there are always coins in a display case that jump out at me when i'm just looking around, and that's a total eye appeal thing. for me that's the best part of going to a show because it never fails that the ones i'm drawn to are coins i have no interest in before hand. last show it was an NGC MS62 bust half, 1820/19 with the most awesome toning rings.
tell me, what's your trick for avoiding the glance at the insert till you can get it covered in your hand? is it just a matter of discipline?
al h.
This is fairly easy for me. As I walk along the aisles, I walk far enough from the cases that I can't make out the grade on the insert. (Actually, I can't make out the date/mint either!) But, I can make out what type of coin it is. And when I lean in to see the coin better, my eyes are still generally focused on the coin, and by then I've already decided if the eye appeal warrants further inspection.
This part is even easier for me because I almost always look at dollars. Pre-Morgans, so I'm not bothered by row after row of identically looking coins! When I used to buy Morgans, Peace, Walkers and Bens, I would buy 'em primarily raw. So, they really are raw! (They go into an album...)
This method, btw, sucks for Morgans and the like. I have bought slabbed Morgans before. I went to Gus Tiso's table and pulled out a bunch of dates in the approx grade range that I wanted. Then I'd compare the coins of the same date/mint to each other and pick the best one. This method is kind of wasted with Gus' inventory. His eye and knowledge is much better than mine, and I'll never be able to cherrypick quality from him.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I know what a Morgan grades as soon as I pick it up. Then I look at the insert to see if PCGS graded it right. If it grades lower than what I think I ask myself what did I miss, and look for problems. If it grades higher than what I think, I can see the problems PCGS missed. If it grades what I think it should I look again to make sure. Then I decide if it's low or high end and how bad I want it.
jom
This does not mean that the PCGS coin is "better" but it will command, on average, a higher market price.
Just MHO....
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
PS-My compliments on your registry sets.
Although I do still need 89, 91, 92, and 98 in $50 Gold.
What really matters is: How much enjoyment did you get out of owning the coin while you were its caretaker and how much did you sell it vs how much you paid when your stewardship is over.
When it comes time to sell, the dealer/friend/auction patron is going to look at the coin and not the holder to evaluate its worth. In that event, and mindful of your personal enjoyment, the way to do the absolute best is to look for a coin who's price is less than its value. I submit that it doesn't matter which holder it's in to be able to take advantage of this disparity.
Much of this topic is centered around a notion of ``better'' between the two services, yet no one's really tried to precisely defined what ``better'' means. I think it is this vagueness that's causing a lot of us to speak in circles.
Some say that ``better'' implies grading. Others imply customer service. Let's see what else: appearance of holder, user-friendliness of message board. Last, but not least, some imply financial reward.
For the record, I like NGC's customer service over PCGS's. For everything else, I am neutral. Sure, PCGS has a rep for grading stricter. So what? That's just different. I like NGC's holders more; better contrast with my mostly toned coins. So what? The holders are just different. Yada, yada, yada.
Financial reward: IMO, this is a surprisingly big area of contention. No one in his right mind would contend that PCGS coins bring more in a sight-unseen market. And, in many (most?) instances, I think in the sight-seen market as well. Whether the reasons for this is valid or not is irrelevent to me at this moment.
However, I still wonder if this makes PCGS at better service in terms of financial reward... To me, ``better'' in this case means that I get much more than I put in. So if I buy something for $1 and sell for $3, I'm very happy with my 200% profit. So if PCGS coins bring more, doesn't that mean that you have to pay more to buy 'em? (And, if NGC sells for less, you pay less.) Basically, what I'm saying is that if a coin is valued higher, then you pay more and can sell for more. So how does that equate to increased profits?
I can think of two ways to try to maximize your profit in this PCGS vs NGC financial reward scenario:
1. Buy raw modern coins and try to make high-grade PCGS slabs.
2. Buy high-end (for the money spent, not for the printed grade on the insert) coins in other-brand holders and try to get them into PCGS slabs.
This leaves you with a bunch of PCGS slabs that you can sell at higher prices due to branding. But, this also means that you have to stop buying PCGS slabs because branding minimizes your profit margin.
Anyway, this is why I preach ``buy the coin, not the holder'' because I know that if I'm getting ready to sell, I'll try to take advantage of current market forces and, for example, try to maximize the grades of my coins in the best possible holder.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You hit the nail on the head.
Pcgs Lincoln's sell for more the NGC.
Kevin
<< <i>This debate IS getting old but the plain fact of the matter is, if I have a PCGS Lincoln in MS67 RD and someone else has the same coin in NGC MS67 RD, and we both go to sell them...Guess what?... In a purely financial sense, I win!
This does not mean that the PCGS coin is "better" but it will command, on average, a higher market price.
Just MHO....
Coppernicus >>
Not if you paid much more for the PCGS coin than someone else paid for the NGC coin to begin with! You have to pay more to start out with the PCGS coin. Making money is not just about how much you can sell something for. The guy can sell the 1933 Saint for $5 million (and it would still be the second largest price ever for a coin) and it would be a huge loss. The guy that paid $69,000 for the PCGS 1953-S Franklin lost over $30,000 on the PCGS coin.
If PCGS coins sell for more money, this is the same as saying you can buy NGC coins for less. The people with good eyes buy the NGC coin for less, get it into a PCGS holder so they can sell the same coin for more to the group that equates the plastic to value. Others buy PCGS coins, put them into NGC holders and sell the same coin for more. There is no right way to do it, it all depends on the coin.
WSM said:
<< <i>Lets be honest, PCGS commands more money like Coppernicus says, why do you think this is? What does common sense tell you? It tells me that the majority of the numismatic world agrees more with PCGSs opinion than NGCs! >>
That is not necessarily true. The reason PCGS coin gets more for the grade is that the "majority of the numismatice world agrees" that PCGS is more conservative. That doesn't mean they are "better". It simply means their standards is tighter...at least with Lincolns as you've mentioned.
IMO, the "better" service is the one that is most CONSISTANT with their grading NOT necessarily the one that is tighter. For a long time I always felt NGC was more consistant than PCGS. I'm not at all sure anymore as I believe there are many series where I would NOT label either services as anything near consistant.
jom
stman
Finally, once again I must reiterate that the preference for a particular holder is very dependent on the series. I mainly collect double eagles, and although my collection has increased in value by about 40% over the last year, that is mostly due to the move in gold prices from $270 to $315. There is very little premium for PCGS in this market, and what premium there was seems to be shrinking. I remember looking at the Heritage inventory in the past and there used to be $10-20 premiums for PCGS holders, and I was surprised to find as I looked just now, one after the other, same date, same grade Saints were the SAME price! So I guess it might be a good idea for me to buy up all those PCGS pieces and sell them to folks like WSM at a nice profit. But in the real world, it really no longer makes any financial sense to try to cross an NGC slab to a PCGS slab at this point since you'd just be throwing the grading fee out the window for nothing. Of course this is the case for what I collect, it may be quite different for other series, but unlike the collectors of those series where PCGS is preferred, I will not try to generalize across all series.
your logic is sound unless you take a look at things from a percentage basis. all things being equal---which, BTW, they hardly ever are---if a PCGS and NGC coin are bought and sold at a price relationship that stays the same at the point of sale, the PCGS coin will always net a larger profit, and i think this is the way that most of us look at it. here's a wide open example. assume you pay $50 for the NGC coin and $100 for the PCGS coin. if the sale relationship is the same, twice as much for the PCGS coin, you'll always come out ahead. and at the same time, i'd assume that if you were to sell at a loss, the PCGS coin would be at less of a loss on a percentage basis.
in your last post you mentioned that the guy who bought the franklin lost money. that has me confused unless it was sold recently and i missed it. what were you meaning there, that he lost money by buying a PCGS coin as opposed to an NGC?
al h.
That, unfortunately for the poor sap who took the loss, is true. I was there when he bought the coin at somewhere around $70K, and I was there when the coin closed at nearly half the price he bought it for. I believe both auctions were by Heritage, but certainly the 2nd one was by Heritage. And, I seem to remember that it sold the 2nd time to a book bidder.
I distinctly remember that there were huge murmurs going through the room each time after the hammer fell. People whispered at the unbelievable price and people whispered at the huge loss.
Regardless of how this pertains to this thread, you gotta feel for the chap!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
al h.
evp
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
al h.
<< <i>dbldie55
your logic is sound unless you take a look at things from a percentage basis. all things being equal---which, BTW, they hardly ever are---if a PCGS and NGC coin are bought and sold at a price relationship that stays the same at the point of sale, the PCGS coin will always net a larger profit, and i think this is the way that most of us look at it. here's a wide open example. assume you pay $50 for the NGC coin and $100 for the PCGS coin. if the sale relationship is the same, twice as much for the PCGS coin, you'll always come out ahead. and at the same time, i'd assume that if you were to sell at a loss, the PCGS coin would be at less of a loss on a percentage basis.
Uh hello keets, whose logic is off? If you pay $50 for an NGC and sell it for a $100 you made $50, if buy a PCGS for $100 and sell it for $200 you made a hundred, right? The problem with your logic is that you could have bought (2) coins in NGC holders for the same $100 you paid for the PCGS coin. 2X$50 still equals a hundred. Best you do stick with PCGS coins, the math is simpler.
Camelot
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Camelot
<< <i>Okay, everyone gets one last post and we call it quites for at least 30 days! Make it a good one! Remember, you cant respond for 30 days, you have to hold it in! >>
what happened to this wallstreet
Camelot
Camelot
<< <i>It tells me that the majority of the numismatic world agrees more with PCGSs opinion than NGCs! >>
That is an assumption based on facts not in evidence. It is far more likely that PCGS slabs command higher prices because the perception is that they grade more strictly, NOT because the majority agrees with their grading practices.
In point of fact, I'd guess that the majority actually disagrees. Not only is PCGS inconsistent (out of 18 crackouts I've done so far, the grade went up on 12), their current grading standards do not adhere to their own published guidelines or those of the ANA.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Irish Mike - In answer to your question, Where is Moses when we need him? He is currently eating a large bowel of chicken soup with a matza ball and noodles, at Canters Deli on fairfax in LA. Bear
Bear, this is one of my favorite deli's.
stman
Camelot