Dealers who sell cleaned coins
DesertLizard
Posts: 702 ✭
I am no expert but I see alot of raw coins out on the auctions being sold by people with high feedback levels [ in the 100s]. I would assume they know a thing or two about numismatics but I see they auction off coins which have been cleaned and do state so in their auction. What's up with that? Why do they do it? Is a small profit worth losing their reputation?
Whenever I see s a dealer auction cleaned coins I automatically put it down in my notebook and move on. I dont care how many coins he has i want. I assume all of his material like his ethics are suspect. He will never ever get my business.
What is also galling is some of them act as if they did not know. Well, if they did not know they should be out of business for incompetence.
I must emphasize these "dealers" are mainly on line people and a few show table dealers.
Whenever I see s a dealer auction cleaned coins I automatically put it down in my notebook and move on. I dont care how many coins he has i want. I assume all of his material like his ethics are suspect. He will never ever get my business.
What is also galling is some of them act as if they did not know. Well, if they did not know they should be out of business for incompetence.
I must emphasize these "dealers" are mainly on line people and a few show table dealers.
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Some people sell replicas of coins. Some people like them and buy them. Some people sell coin jewlery. Some sell elongated coins, painted coins, oversized coins.... whatever they sell and whatever people buy is fine. If it is clearly and honestly stated what the merchandize is.
If it's a personal choice of yours not to deal with those who sell cleaned coins, that's well and good. I don't think you have to equate those who do though, and are upfront about it, with dishonest business practices.
Edit: People who are buying up coins and aggressively cleaning them to try to milk a few more bucks out of them, are a different thing all together than what I am refering to.
Not that I would defend cleaning coins, but on the other hand it's hard to say that a cleaned coin has zero value. I think many of the ebay sellers that sell cleaned coins (and say so in the auction description) feel like their mention of the cleaning gets them off the hook with the serious numismatists, while they secretly hope an unsophisticated buyer will pay too much out of ignorance.
Full disclosure is always good. I don't know what the answer is for a dealer at a show. If the coin isn't labeled as cleaned, you don't know if they'll point it out if you express interest in the coin.
A 1877 Indian in G that's been scrubbed with a pencil eraser may look like crap, but for some people that's the only kind they'll ever be able to afford.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I have a typo when i started the thread....
It should have said there are dealers who sell cleaned coins and do NOT disclose the fact.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Instead of putting Dealers in your book who sell cleaned coins you better seek out the few that do not sell cleaned coins. I wish you much luck with your search.
Was typing this when the New Twist was Added to this Thread.....
I find it odd that some collectors will pay handsomely for a piece that turns my stomach. I love dark circulated coins that probably make most members on this BB hurl chunks. We are all different with different tastes. Dealers I believe offer the coins without judgement and allow us the buyer to purchase or not. Who are they to ultimately decide what is wholly original or not?
The trick is to find a reputable dealer that knows what you like and allows returns for pieces that don't work for you.
I do admit that I sometimes get very Irked when a dealer promotes a coin as "ORIGINAL" when it clearly is not. Long time dealers know what is original or not and shouldn't tout it if it ain't so! However, I am not bothered by them not disclosing a cleaning. If they don't offer a return privilege then they are not worth my time....EVER!
That is most of the fun of collecting for me; it is learning the look of an original or cleaned coin and then looking through the graveyard of harshly cleaned coins for that one in a thousand piece.
Tyler
"Please do not tell me my prices are too high........
I find these coins, I sort them, wash them, scrub off all the gunk,
polish em up and stick em in the holders. The extra I charge is
to help defray the costs of my labor."
I personally, have no problem collecting cleaned coins for my raw sets, esp if it's a "hard-to-find-cheap" coin. I don't have extremely deep pockets most of the time, so my coin dollars must be stretched as far as possible. I do try to avoid the cleaned coins, but if it's the best I can afford, I can live with it.
in 20 years after the tpg go bust cleaned coins will be ok once again. the cleaned coin ruse is a ploy by tpg to get you to use them tor their invaluable info. i call "you know what
You drag up a 21 year old thread to trash TPGs, on a TPG's forum, no less?
So your business model is to buy up all the cleaned coins you can find and hold them until the TPG's go bust and then clean up? Solid plan.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It's a big problem, why we have the grading services.
Also rubber checks; a dealer told me today about huge amounts of bad paper he had come up against over the years; should be criminally prosecuted when the checks are large and it goes on uncorrected for a period of time.
I can see a seller that occasionally has a coin listed and doesn't know that it is cleaned. What bothers me are sellers that have thousands of coins listed (many with probs) and their only description is judge by the pictures. i have seen one that sells both slabs and raw, where obviously the cleaned coins in the slabs have to be consistent with the slab label, e.g., cleaned; but somehow every raw coin is problem free (even though the pics suggest most of them are not). For me personally, if something looks even slightly suspect, I pass... and that doesn't even account for doctored images....
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I’m moving grandpas penny collection from the ole blue folders ( keeping) and moving to a quality album. For this project there’s a number of coins going terminal. I’m honoring his finds from his childhood. I’m cleaning the green rot off and smutz on several. In this case cleaning is a respectable way to deal with coins that have tremendous personal value but aren’t worth enough to pay for tpg conservation. Enjoying his legacy is the important thing.
So soak and attempt to get the crapola off. Thanks 🙏
As long as the seller discloses the cleaning or possibility of it. I’m good
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
It is a fact of life that a large number of coins have been cleaned. I have no problem with someone who trades in them as long as he (she) calls a spade a spade. The market will determine the value of these problem coins.
In 20 years from what? Twenty years from the origination of this thread (which has passed) or 20 years from now when you resurrected it? Once again I ask, why do you keep resurrecting 20+ year old threads? You never answered before, but I am curious. Inquiring minds want to know.
Philippians 4:4-7
Conservation of coins -
A large percentage of coins probably dipped / conserved. Simply an industry wide practice. Newly purchased collector coin Uncs many need a good dip. This improves their sales demand / just a normal part of the biz.
To me a “cleaned” coin has surface abrasions (like erasure marks).
I don’t have a problem with dealers that sell cleaned or other problem coins. I have a problem with dealers that sell problem coins AND misrepresent the coins.
There is one Dealer who I've seen at many local coin shows, and I walk right by him every time because every coin in his display case is Polished and cleaned. I don't like to judge but cannot see how he sells and feels good with himself. I for one could not do it.
you're forgiven
Problem coins are still coins and have some value to some buyers. It is not dishonest if they disclose it or (for raw coins) image the coin sufficient to see the problems clearly (though still should note it).
There are guys whose entire inventories appear so uniformly messed with that you know they are the culprits. They might all have been whizzed, harshly scrubbed, dipped, or artificially toned.
You are doing yourself a disservice by wholesale dismissing a dealer's entire inventory because they have some cleaned coins.
The ones I skip, in frustration, are though who juice their images with absurdly high contrast or have blurry Google Earth quality images.
I have a BIG problem with folks who buy details coins, crack them out, and then sell them as problem free coins.
"You're"
Fixed, so sorry 😞 I'll repent tommorow ifin I remember 🙂
It was an old post. Maybe he meant "yore forgiven".
As in mistakes of yore.
If collectors didn’t care whether coins were cleaned or not, the TGPs wouldn’t care either.
well reading posts here its obvious who is selling cleaned coins and probably dont say so
my point was in the 1960s and70s a cleaned coin wasnt a bad thing and then these guys step inand tell you just how worthless a cleaned coin is. i dont need someone to tell me if a coin is worth buying. if i want it i will buy it regardless what someone says.. have a very nice day.
Thats because prior to the advent of TPG grading, problem coins were routinely passed off to uninformed buyers who did not know any better. Scrubbed coins and AU being sold as Gem, counterfeits, dealers all assigning their own grades with no industry accepted standard. TPG grading enabled efficiency in the marketplace, graded coins could be sold with a few phone calls. Whether we like it or not, the market would not be where it is today without TPGs. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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you are so informed btw that still happens
Yes, albeit on a much lesser scale. Note my use of the word "routinely" in my previous comment.
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Well @DeplorableDan , next time you have problem coins rather than putting them up for no reserve auctions on eBay I guess you can just sell them to Steve for full retail as he doesn't particularly care.
please leave my name out of your mouth
but dan you can run them by me you never know
and you are right i dont
Oohh, internet gangster who's been here for 3 weeks. Very intimidating. Really pushing my buttons and getting a reaction!
Cleaned coins were just as bad in the 60’s and 70’s. It’s just that prior to third party grading, not nearly as many buyers were aware of which coins were cleaned.
And the grading companies aren’t telling you that cleaned coins are worthless or whether they’re worth buying. Each person makes that decision for himself.
Based on your line of thinking, you could just as easily say “in the 1960s and 70s counterfeits weren’t a bad thing and then these guys step in and tell you just how worthless a counterfeit coin is. I don't need someone to tell me if a coin is worth buying. if i want it I will buy it regardless what someone says.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When I buy a coin collection to resell, I make sure to destroy all cleaned coins so I do not destroy my reputation by selling them. Sure, someone who can’t afford a pristine key date may have loved to have a nice cleaned example of it, but I sure don’t want to risk losing a customer like the original poster.
Philippians 4:4-7
I’d say that all dealers who sell coins sometimes sell cleaned coins. “Improperly cleaned” is different than “cleaned”. Beyond that, some coins are cleaned so lightly that it can be easily overlooked. It’s not like there’s a clear dividing line between cleaned and not cleaned. Dipping is considered “cleaning” by some and perfectly acceptable by others (and at times TPGs and CAC).
As a dealer, I have some thoughts on the subject of cleaning.
The key is disclosure. When it comes to condition, If the customer knows exactly what they are getting and buys the coin how could anyone be critical of the dealer for selling them the coin. I learned early on as a dealer that it is not my job to tell my customers that they should not collect something they like. I even remember reading a thread about someone on this board doing a type set where every coin was holed. Many on here said it was a cool idea.
I also want to point out that when it comes to rare gold coins, it can be almost impossible to fine some examples that are not cleaned to some degree. The TPG recognizes this, and I have seen many rare gold coins (think "o" "d' "c" "cc") that were cleaned but still sitting in a straight graded holder.
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Without reading all the posts in this thread, what would you like them to do with them? Cleaned coins are in most all collections of older coins. They need to get rid of them to get more inventory . IF some cleaned coins are in a liberty seated dime collection, they have to purchase them with the collection. Most circulated coins dated in the 1800's have been cleaned in some way or another. No dealer wants to deal in cleaned coins exclusively. It is part of the business, every dealer has bought and sold cleaned coins.
I just sold a cleaned AU 1870-CC quarter for over $22,000. In an NGC cleaned AU-50 slab. Key coins sell, cleaned or not.
I have noticed all CC coins sell well even harshly cleaned examples, assuming they are priced per condition, there is a lot of demand for them.
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Here's one where you kind of have to read the whole thread. The OP later said he meant to say dealers who DON'T disclose cleaning. That makes more sense but the original post is still there, unedited, and it makes his point seem confusing.
This was a 21 year old post that got revived on August 4, 2023 by a seller of some bitter fruit. That's where the current discussion really started.
I once bought some Peace Dollars and unknowingly, they were all cleaned. To my surprise when years later, I sent one in for grading to have a wonderful label returned that said CLEANED COIN Grrrrr...do we as buyers have to ask that question, "Have these coins been cleaned?" Or better yet, learn the difference between a cleaned coin and uncleaned coin is.