Lets Try to Be More Civil--Even to Dealers

CalGold

Let try to keep the rant level down a bit. No one likes dishonest ebay sellers or deceptive practices. But I think it would be valuable to hear more from full-time dealers. The recent rant about cancelled minimum bid auctions led to some posts that appear to have been interpreted by TBT either as personal attacks or as evidence that board participants have a very strong anti-delaer bias. I don't think it is good for the educational value of this board to make dealers feel that their views are unwelcome. Anyone agree or disagree?

RLinn

Almost always and sometimes without exception, every buyer needs a seller and every seller needs a buyer. Not all are perfect but all have their motives for being one or the other. This forum is great place to get an insight into what makes the other guy tick. We owe one another a modicum of respect even in our differences of opinion. I for one am learning a great deal and sure appreciate the tolerance shown by all.

DHeath

CalGold,

To Bryan's credit, he tried to single-handedly defend another dealers actions by explaining how difficult it is to make a living selling coins. In a similar thread on NGC's US coin forum, an anonymous dealer said something to the effect the coin business was the only one in which the buyer had access to greysheet and frequently misused it. Boy is that not true. In my business, everybody and there brother has access to vehicle cost down to shipping. Anyone can go online to Kelly or any number of sites to get trade values etc. Do they frequently misuse this info, you bet! Every customer believes their trade is extra-clean, and if they pay more than wholesale for the dealer's vehicle, they're getting abused. Carmax and several large sellers have proven however that the public will indeed pay a reasonable profit if supplied with adequate information. My disagreement with the auction tactic in question is just a question of business ethics. The community will always vote with their dollars and cause some businesses to thrive and others to fail. Starting a negotiation like an ebay sale by misrepresenting your goods as not having a reserve is simply not good business. Saying so isn't uncivil, and that isn't a personal attack. IMHO

TWQG

I didn't see any ranting or personal attacks in the mentioned thread. There was, however, a lot of well reasoned and well stated points. Of course with all of the cowardly editing, one can't know for sure.

Petescorner

I don't think it's fair to equate a couple of dealers with questionable selling methods, to all dealers in general. The vast majority of dealers I know would be on the buyer's side of the previous thread mentioned.

-Dan

WWBillman

CalGold,

I was one of the loudest voices on that thread and do not feel I ever personally attacked anyone and I do not have any anti-dealer bias. If you read whats left of the thread (most of what was edited out is still there in other posts that quoted it) I think most will agree it was a very civil discussion. I will not adjust my views of hold my tongue just because someone might not agree and get their feelings hurt. If everyone did that what would be the point of wasting your time here?

Clankeye

I agree with WWBillman and D Heath. I don't think the thread got out of order. You're having a discussion about ethics, and people are bound to feel strongly about the subject one way or another. If we have to water down what is said on this board from that even, this place is going to become too PC as to even be worth a look at.

kryptonitecomics

Here we go again...... it looks like this thread could end up going the wrong way as well. I agree with Calgold from the standpoint of the dealers adding a great deal of value to these boards. I was able to read all of the original posts as they were being posted and I didn't feel they were any personal attack either. It is always difficult to get two or more parties to agree to disagree about something. I believe the so called Mob, including myself made some extremely valid points, and as I pointed out in the original post, I though the TBT tried to respond in a professional way, even if some didn't agree with his reasoning. There was a lot of ranting though.....as is usual the case when people express their opinions with passion and a sense of conviction. I think it's fair to say, "be mindful of your feeling Anakin, anger will lead you to the Darkside"

4thStooge

<< <i>Of course with all of the cowardly editing, one can't know for sure >>



if you missed taking a cheap shot before - you hit it dead on this time.

to all, if TBT violates no rules there is no ethical question to ponder.

Petescorner

if TBT violates no rules there is no ethical question to ponder.

I think the people who are disagreeing with TBT are the ones who understand the difference between rules and ethics. That's the point.

-Dan

JoyofCollecting

I wrote only two sentences during the entire exchange. I think this subject should almost be taboo. We go through the same thing on this board about every three weeks. People feel very strongly on the issue. Some of us live in a black and white world and others live in a grey world. I don't think we'll ever reach full agreement....although it looks like there is a very strong bias toward one direction. If Ebay would just include the number of bid cancellations to go along with bid retractions, then I think we could all go along way toward dropping the subject.

I had resolved the previous time this subject came up to never comment again. This time I kept it to two sentences. I was still attacked via PM as being a mob member. I won't be commenting again because I don't wish to be attacked non-publicly again.

I absolutely agree with the spirit of this string which I think means to try to keep our comments as civil as possible and not direct them towards individuals but only toward ideas. This I agree with and support. And, I think I can do an even better job of practicing this. However, directing comments toward "dealers who cancel bids early due to low bids" is very different than directing the comments toward:

- an individual
- all dealers
- dealers who cancel due to mistakes

The above listing are "ideas" not individuals. I don't believe it is accurate for someone to come in the middle of a debate and admit to being a member of one of the "ideas" being discussed and then claim that they are being attacked personally. If the idea was being attacked before person admits to a practice.....don't suddenly then call it a personal thing or a thing against dealers. I think coin dealers are some of the best folks I come across and wish I could spend more time with them just to learn absorb and enjoy. I am moving in five days. While my wife is excited about the new house, I'm more excited about meeting the five new coin dealers in the town I'm moving to.

Thanks for letting me ramble. I will constantly try to be more civil on this board. As I said in defending myself in a PM as a member of the "mob", this forum is much more civil on the whole than 99% of the internet forums that I have seen. I appreciate everyone's opinion and don't wish that we turn it into a forum where earnest disagreement is avoided.

IrishMike

The thread in question wasn't even about coin dealers, it was about people who sell coins on Ebay. It was anti ending a sell early for what several of us thought were not justifiable reasons. You can cancel an auction early but not for the purpose of not reaching what you think was the bid you wanted. That isn't an auction it's a classified ad and even worse one without a price. 4th stooge I will direct these comments to you, first of all its questionable that no rules were broken, but I'll assume you were correct, there are a lot of things we learn from our parents, grandparents teachers, mentors, siblings that aren't written down as rules. There is no rule book in life but there certainly are ethical choices to be made in a lot of things we do and say. Very few businesses will exist very long if they offer to sell something then change their mind when a legitimate offer is on the table. If you are going to run scared any business then put an opening price or reseve on the item. Don't expect people to get caught up in an auction and automatically bid what you think it is worth. Getting back to the point at issue, I didn't read one post that I considered to be out of line, in fact I was impressed with the replies.

g097103

I don't think anyone was uncivil in the thread in question. The discussion started as a warning about a
particular seller and branched as threads due into a general discussion. I never detected that anyone was
attacked personally beyond the ebay seller e.mix, and I plead guilty to that act. All in all I think this is one
of the more civil discussion boards I have ever participated in.

Scott M

gsaguy

Could someone provide a link to the subject thread? Sounds like something I'd have enjoyed reading and perhaps commenting upon.

I'd normally not miss such a thread but I'm at the ANA slaving over hot coins trying to find material to keep all the eager collectors happy so I don't get flamed!

GSAGUY

DHeath

Here you go, but I'll share with you that TBT deleted most of his posts late in the thread.

Link

gsaguy

Thanks DHeath!

I'll check it out. I'll also have TBT fill in all the details (his side of the story) when he arrives tonight in NYC.....that is, IF he arrives in NYC with all the storms in the area.

With all the bouncing around in the plane, I'll be Bryan's face is going to be colored about like some of those rainbows he sells!

GSAGUY

DHeath

Good GsaGuy,

Bryan got pretty fed up with us. If you see him, tell him we said have a good show! No hard feelings, just an honest disagreement.

Dog97

If a sleazy lowlife overgrading rip-off big time commercial dealer is scared to post here.........Then we haven't missed anything.
There are lots of guys from big time dealerships that post here. They use a handle and you just don't know who they are. Might be a good thing.

CalGold

Well I've read your replies to my post. Boy are you guys definsive! I did not start this thread to take issue with those who object to unethical sales practices, and in fact I agree with most of you who posted in the original thread regarding the ebay seller who yanked his no reserve, low minimum auction--and I so stated in my reply to TBT in that thread. My point is that there is too much venom directed at third parites and even among board members in many threads that involve points of personal preference (eg. modern vs. classic; brilliant vs. toned).

As to Dog's point, I am not worried about discouraging the sleezy dealers from offering their thoughts, I am concerned about discouraging knowledgable people, whether they be dealers or collectors, from posting for fear of being slammed. I am rather more thick skinned than others, but many people do not feel comfortable in heated debate or in threads filled with intemperate rant (hopefully this piece is not devolving into that). And I think there is a line, though not necessarily a clear one, between heated, passionate debate, and lively discussion.

My only point is to keep things polite, and encourage participation.

Pushkin

This thread is starting to upset me more than the original. "Lets try to be more civil even to dealers" - maybe it should be titled "lets be scared little frightened whimps when the big, benevolent, abused-by-mean-buyers, dealer speaks".

The original thread was both civil and objective. Who was it that used name calling and said those who disagreed were part of a "lynch mob"? I believe it was the poor, abused, has a God-given right to a profit, rules trump ethics, point of view!

Excuse me, I have to leave and go bah, bah like a sheep on the "Those poor, abused, right-to- lie, cheat, and steel - We Feel Sorry for Enron, Global Crossing, WorldCom, .. executuves forum".

Pushkin the Ranting Lynch Mobster

CalGold

I previously noted that you guys are defensive. Let me also add insecure. Yikes--now I'm not being civil. I guess ranting is contagious.

I am not asking anyone to cower to dealers. I certainly don't. They are merchants who sell luxury items, not necessities. We interface with them by our own choosing and chose which ones to do business with and which to shun.

Pushkin

May I respectfully suggest that we may disagree, but only our spouses and our shrinks know for sure whether or not we are defensive and/or insecure.

Pushkin the Defensive, Insecure, Lynch-Mobster

Bear

I Believe in civil service, civil engeneers and civil liberties, but I dont want to have to be civil to people. People are the ones who keep shooting at us bears and its very painful to say the least. Bear

WWBillman

<< <i>We interface with them by our own choosing and chose which ones to do business with and which to shun. >>



AND that was the whole point of the other thread......... If dealers practice unethical sales practices like the one in question it pisses us of and thus "We interface with them by our own choosing and chose which ones to do business with and which to shun".

Seeing how the last thread was civil and never personally attacked any board member but was rather an exchange of opinions I only wish I could figure out the point of this thread.

Pushkin

Well bear, you have my sympathy; but what about us crabs - stepped on, boiled alive, our skins peeled off, and then devoured.

Explains why we are sometimes preceived as defensive and insecure (but not mobsters, that assertion really makes me angry).

IrishMike

Interesting, someone who decided to start posting in June now has made themselves arbiter of the boards and judge of our opinions. This is ranting? I guess I don't know what the word means. My wife has never accused me of ranting, however I muttered under my breath a few times about her rants. These replies to you calgold aren't defensive, I would classify them as disbelief that you have totaly either misjudged the tone of the replies or are purposely trying to inflame. No I am not ranting, I am sitting here chuckling.

Charles

When I started collecting coins ( not that long ago ), I was under the impression that dealers were suppose to be kind of guiders for collectors. Trying to balance profits with giving their clients a fair price, advising collectors as to the ins and outs of coin collecting ( actually helping them not to get ripped off ), and giving advise on coin collecting in general. What's the real deal? Is this like the used car business? I know I've overpaid on many of the coins I've bought. The difference is that I keep my morals in my transactions, weather when I rarely got a good deal or overpaid because of ignorance. I know that there are honest dealers on this board who actually won't take advantage of collectors. They're the ones who side with the collector because they know that it's the collector who supports they're livelihood. You guys might say that this is a business, not a hobby. So what are you doing on this board? Spamming?

Charles

4thStooge

<< <i>I think the people who are disagreeing with TBT are the ones who understand the difference between rules and ethics. That's the point. >>



Rules(laws, regs, etc.) and ethics are one in the same. If you don't break the rules no sin is committed. period!




<< <i>4th stooge I will direct these comments to you, first of all its questionable that no rules were broken, but I'll assume you were correct, there are a lot of things we learn from our parents, grandparents teachers, mentors, siblings that aren't written down as rules. There is no rule book in life but there certainly are ethical choices to be made in a lot of things we do and say. Very few businesses will exist very long if they offer to sell something then change their mind when a legitimate offer is on the table. >>




Again, rules are ethics and ethics are the rules. The rest is nothing more than the nicety of customer service. If you don't like the manner in which a merchant conducts their business then don't deal with them.


The underlying current in this thread, imho, is that most of you want the opportunity to 'rip' a deal so you can have some bragging rights and a fat profit margin when you sell.

g097103

<< <i>Rules(laws, regs, etc.) and ethics are one in the same. If you don't break the rules no sin is committed. period! >>



Patently false. Rules are what you have to do, ethics are what you choose to do.

rule
n.

1. An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations
governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport,
or contest.

Keyword is prescribed.

eth·ic
n.

1.
1. A set of principles of right conduct.



Scott M

Dog97

Yes, Charles, the used coin biz is just like the used car biz except that used coin dealers don't lurk in parking lots wearing bad suits sizing you up as a potential victim I mean customer out the corner of their eye while acting like they're not looking at you then moving in on you when you stop the car. But then I drive down to the other end of the lot and they have to chase me down all over again while acting like they're not. Used car dealers are more fun than coin dealers. Car dealers will take more crap from a customer than a coin dealer will.

4thStooge

<< <i> Car dealers will take more crap from a customer than a coin dealer will. >>



There's usually more money involved.

WWBillman

<< <i>The underlying current in this thread, imho, is that most of you want the opportunity to 'rip' a deal so you can have some bragging rights and a fat profit margin when you sell. >>



No one wants to rip a dealer.

The dealer sets the minimum bid or reserve in the auction. If he does get ripped he has no one to blame but himself.

4thStooge

No one?

Hey Bill, that's funny!

Askari

I see that the more things change on the Liteside, the more they stay the same.

WWBillman

OK 4thStooge let me rephrase to state the facts.

No buyer on Ebay has the ability to rip a dealer. The dealer sets the minimum bid or reserve in the auction. If he does get ripped he ripped himself and therefore has no one to blame but himself.

DHeath

Dog,

We don't wear suits anymore, and the funny thing is, if we don't come speak to you, you'll think we're not interested in your business. "What, does this guy think I'm not dressed nice enough to buy his car!". You were correct about the takes more crap part though.

Dog97

I didn't mean real suits, I meant those 70's leisure suits that are always some gawdawful color like green, wine red, or baby blue with white loafers with black tassels. And they always have their version of the GreySheet, that hand written list that they pull out of their pocket. "I'm not sposed to show this to anyone but this is what we actually paid for this car, so you can see that I'm not making any profit................."

DHeath

Hahaha, the old this is cost trick. That never works. If you tell a customer you paid X for a car, they'll ask you how much you're willing to lose. We're a one price shop. Once I had a 2000 Mercedes S500 on my sign out on car row priced at $58000 and the wind blew off the first five. I had a lady stop while I was fixing the sign and ask me if $8000 was the best I would do. Generally though, dealing with the public is fun, and no two days are alike.


BTW - Dog, you're spending entirely too much time looking at cars.