Any American that thinks following the rules equates to ethical or moral behavior need only look at the Nuremberg war criminal trials.
America and its allies executed and imprisoned a large number of human beings who were "just following orders and rules."
Rules do not equate to ethics and morals. Moral absolutes do exist and rules may or may not intersect those moral absolutes. There are moral absolutes that relate to incest. If Ohio and/or the U.S. goverment legalize incest tomorrow....the moral absolute does not change.
"Following the rules" will never provide an adequate defense to those who violate moral absolutes.
Ethics has to include following the rules, but it also includes so much more than that. Ethics is about having a personal code of conduct that respects all people and thier rights as well as your own rights. It also includes honesty and integrity (two concepts that blow right past the people like 4th and thier 'situational' ethics). Any time that you consider the situation before you decide whether or not the action that you are about to take is ethical, you have already missed the boat entirely because you are no longer in an ethical discussion - you have jumped to rationalization which has nothing to do with ethics. I personnally believe that the reason that we have the current state of affairs in this country (esp. in the business world) is that because people have been touting 'situational ethics' like those described by 4th for so many years that people have forgotten what it means to be ethical.
As for the original topic of this thread, it is neither honest nor integrous for a dealer on ebay or any other auction site to list an item at a ridiculously low starting price (to avoid auction fees) or to list the item without a reserve (to avoid auction fees) and then to cancel all of the bids on an item (breaking an implied contract with the buyer - total lack of integrity) at the last moment because the market dod not give the seller enough of a profit on the item. Yes, it might be within the rules for the dealer to cancel the auction (but to lie about the reason is also unethical), but being within the rules is only the very smallest and minutest part of that thing we choose to call ethics!
I too will never do business with several of the dealers on ebay because they have done this very thing to me!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I just had to respond to this very interesting thread. You guys (and gals) have provided me with a lot of "food for thought". I'm not a dealer, but I have over 1800 transactions on ebay, mostly involving coins. I sell to obtain the money to invest in my collection interests. And yes, I am also an active buyer of material for my collections, and items that I think I can re-sell for a profit to feed my collecting habits.
That being said, I think it is morally and ethically wrong to cancel bids on an auction just because the bids haven't met my expectations. I know, and understand, the rules. I also know that I have the right to end an auction if I so desire. Some of my auctions have disappointed me. And,yes, I have actually lost money with their ending bids. But, guess what? I'm the one who initially decided the starting price and whether or not to place a reserve on the item--no one else can accept the responsibility for that decision--just little ole me!! If someone gets a good deal because of an error in my judgement-so be it. You just have to chalk it up to experience and move on.
On the other hand, I have had some auctions that far exceeded my expectations and I have profited handsomely. Those particular buyers must have thought the item was worth their bid because they paid me and left positive feedback.
Because of my straight forward dealings with folks, I have been able to acquire a large number of repeat customers and customers that contact me to purchase items direct instead of the auction venue. For this, I am grateful and I am also able to sleep at night!!!
just read thru this thread. very interesting. the trolls are attacking stooge. and fletch! you have 1800+ ebay transactions but you not a dealer????????????????????????
you trolls should reread this thread and you'll get an idea as to why most dealers have given up posting on the forums. here's a clue for you - most of you are incapable of grasping new ideas.
<< <i> the trolls are attacking stooge. and fletch! you trolls should reread this thread and you'll get an idea as to why most dealers have given up posting on the forums. here's a clue for you - most of you are incapable of grasping new ideas. >>
Cointagious,
I'm sure you're an honest guy and just hadn't had the second cup of coffee before you reverted to name calling. I am confident that your smart enough to not revert to the twelve-year-old tactic of "if you can't attack the idea then attack the speaker." But, as I said; I'm sure it was just early wherever your at and you'll get your wits after that second cup. Honestly, I bet your an upstanding guy that I'd like if I met you and I wouldn't be surprised if I might be a past customer......I know I've at least bid on some of your auctions.
As just a matter of note, I'm sure that most everyone participating on this thread are good, honest, hard-working folks. Observing the very strong opinions though...it really does demonstrate why having a contract when doing business with relative strangers is an absolute must.
I think I'm slow at grasping new ideas. I find your post to be kind of from left field. Could you please post again and explain yourself in far greater detail? I found a little offense in your post, but mostly I am befuddled and wish to be un-befuddled.
Who is attacking fletch and stooge? Who are you calling a troll????? Who has 1800 + ebay transactions and did not consider himself to be a dealer??
Recommended reading - The PCGS Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection and The Coin Collector's Survival Manual and NCI Grading Guide For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
I hope you will take a few minutes to consider what you said in your post. After that consideration, I'm sure you will do the right thing and apologize to the members of this forum for resorting to name calling. Name calling is both impolite and arrogant, and it does not help one's reputation - my mother told me that a ling time ago.
This thread reminds me of what Harry Truman always asked of his advisors, never, what are my options, only what is the right thing to do. I have struggled all of my life with issues of morality, ethics, integrety and honesty. I wish it were always easy, to be sure of the absolute differences between black and white. Usually life has a way of imposing an infinite and subtle range of gray situations. We have to ask ourselves , what is the greater good, will telling the truth cause harm to good people, is any one among us good enought to be the absolute arbiter of good and evil. I suppose these questions are pondered by each of us each day of our lives untill we reach the end of the trail at sundown. It is not necessary to be always in the right, it is necessary only that we never stop trying to do the right thing. Be well Bear ( Edited for spelling and grammer )
<< <i>It is not necessary to be always in the right, it is necessary only that we never stop trying to do the right thing. >>
Read the above and really think about what Bear said. That is all there is. When you are gone (really gone), people will remember you for your character. Not much else. How you acted in this life will be how you are remembered. Not by how many PCGS slabs you left someone.
Now, this is strange. The seller who is the topic of this thread, e.mix, hasn't ended this auction for a 1968 proof set, even though his image server has been down. After all, that was the excuse he gave me.
I purchased several coins from this seller. They were all raw Morgans, but pretty nice for the price. I haven't experienced him cancelling out of an auction at the last minute, but maybe people are not bidding high enough so he is pulling his items off from the sale. Many times the photo link doesn't work because his server seems to lost the image. Sometimes the image reappears and sometimes not. I guess it is sort of quirky. He also had a huge lot of Morgan and Peace dollars for sale from a grab bag type of auction, but even at that low price, gems would be impossible to be among them since he probably cherry picked some of them for sale individually. I don't know where he got his hoard of coins, but the ones that I got were pretty nice.
Recommended reading - The PCGS Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection and The Coin Collector's Survival Manual and NCI Grading Guide For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
because you don't fell comfortable with a particular business practice doesn't make it unethical.
Ethics are the rules and the rules are the ethics. They are one in the same.
A local supermarket lists ads in the newspaper sales flyer at ridiculously low prices - much lower than their cost. When the hoards of people show up to buy, they simply claim the offers were "misprints". They are ready and willing to sell items (to the same crowd) that they're making huge profits on while pulling the "bait" offers. Now they've wasted the time of thousands of customers who came and left. Technically no laws have been broken - is this ethical?
also explain how this situation is different than a seller cancelling low-price auctions on e-bay.
In the case of the newspaper misprints, those can happen, so the supermarket would not be at fault. I have seen my share of errors in sale ads and they usually print out a correction to the ad the next day, but I am sure people will be disappointed at what they thought was a bargain did not turn out as such. Now if this was a bait and switch kind of ad, then ethics would be questionable regarding the company.
The misprinted ads is not quite the same circumstance as the seller cancelling the auctions. The ad misprint had no intent to sell the item at the artificially low price. With the cancellation of the auction, the seller had a last minute change of heart to sell at the low bid price. You can say that the seller should have set a minimum reserve on the item. That would have been more fair. But I think the rules of many auctions sort of favor the seller. A item can be pulled at the discretion of the auctioneer at any time in many of the real in person auctions that I have attended. I could cry foul if they were selling something that I really wanted, but the seller has the last word in many cases.
Recommended reading - The PCGS Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection and The Coin Collector's Survival Manual and NCI Grading Guide For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
Comments
America and its allies executed and imprisoned a large number of human beings who were "just following orders and rules."
Rules do not equate to ethics and morals. Moral absolutes do exist and rules may or may not intersect those moral absolutes. There are moral absolutes that relate to incest. If Ohio and/or the U.S. goverment legalize incest tomorrow....the moral absolute does not change.
"Following the rules" will never provide an adequate defense to those who violate moral absolutes.
I really like your somewhat strongly worded post.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Ethics has to include following the rules, but it also includes so much more than that. Ethics is about having a personal code of conduct that respects all people and thier rights as well as your own rights. It also includes honesty and integrity (two concepts that blow right past the people like 4th and thier 'situational' ethics). Any time that you consider the situation before you decide whether or not the action that you are about to take is ethical, you have already missed the boat entirely because you are no longer in an ethical discussion - you have jumped to rationalization which has nothing to do with ethics. I personnally believe that the reason that we have the current state of affairs in this country (esp. in the business world) is that because people have been touting 'situational ethics' like those described by 4th for so many years that people have forgotten what it means to be ethical.
As for the original topic of this thread, it is neither honest nor integrous for a dealer on ebay or any other auction site to list an item at a ridiculously low starting price (to avoid auction fees) or to list the item without a reserve (to avoid auction fees) and then to cancel all of the bids on an item (breaking an implied contract with the buyer - total lack of integrity) at the last moment because the market dod not give the seller enough of a profit on the item. Yes, it might be within the rules for the dealer to cancel the auction (but to lie about the reason is also unethical), but being within the rules is only the very smallest and minutest part of that thing we choose to call ethics!
I too will never do business with several of the dealers on ebay because they have done this very thing to me!
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I wish I had been able to articulate my thoughts on this subject as well as you have.
ccrdragon,
Welcome to the boards. I like your views on the subject. Have fun you picked a great time to join in, this has been one heII of a thread.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
That being said, I think it is morally and ethically wrong to cancel bids on an auction just because the bids haven't met my expectations. I know, and understand, the rules. I also know that I have the right to end an auction if I so desire. Some of my auctions have disappointed me. And,yes, I have actually lost money with their ending bids. But, guess what? I'm the one who initially decided the starting price and whether or not to place a reserve on the item--no one else can accept the responsibility for that decision--just little ole me!! If someone gets a good deal because of an error in my judgement-so be it. You just have to chalk it up to experience and move on.
On the other hand, I have had some auctions that far exceeded my expectations and I have profited handsomely. Those particular buyers must have thought the item was worth their bid because they paid me and left positive feedback.
Because of my straight forward dealings with folks, I have been able to acquire a large number of repeat customers and customers that contact me to purchase items direct instead of the auction venue.
For this, I am grateful and I am also able to sleep at night!!!
you trolls should reread this thread and you'll get an idea as to why most dealers have given up posting on the forums. here's a clue for you - most of you are incapable of grasping new ideas.
<< <i> the trolls are attacking stooge. and fletch!
you trolls should reread this thread and you'll get an idea as to why most dealers have given up posting on the forums. here's a clue for you - most of you are incapable of grasping new ideas. >>
Cointagious,
I'm sure you're an honest guy and just hadn't had the second cup of coffee before you reverted to name calling. I am confident that your smart enough to not revert to the twelve-year-old tactic of "if you can't attack the idea then attack the speaker." But, as I said; I'm sure it was just early wherever your at and you'll get your wits after that second cup. Honestly, I bet your an upstanding guy that I'd like if I met you and I wouldn't be surprised if I might be a past customer......I know I've at least bid on some of your auctions.
As just a matter of note, I'm sure that most everyone participating on this thread are good, honest, hard-working folks. Observing the very strong opinions though...it really does demonstrate why having a contract when doing business with relative strangers is an absolute must.
I think I'm slow at grasping new ideas. I find your post to be kind of from left field. Could you please post again and explain yourself in far greater detail? I found a little offense in your post, but mostly I am befuddled and wish to be un-befuddled.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
Hi Cointagious,
I hope you will take a few minutes to consider what you said in your post. After that consideration, I'm sure you will do the right thing and apologize to the members of this forum for resorting to name calling. Name calling is both impolite and arrogant, and it does not help one's reputation - my mother told me that a ling time ago.
Thank you,
you're right. but you need to read back a few posts, too. i'm not the lone ranger here.
i apologize to all the trolls.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Camelot
I always look forward to and appreciate the wisdom you bring to these boards.
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>It is not necessary to be always in the right, it is necessary only that we never stop trying to do the right thing. >>
Read the above and really think about what Bear said. That is all there is. When you are gone (really gone), people will remember you for your character. Not much else. How you acted in this life will be how you are remembered. Not by how many PCGS slabs you left someone.
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
Russ, NCNE
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
Ethics are the rules and the rules are the ethics. They are one in the same.
A local supermarket lists ads in the newspaper sales flyer at ridiculously low prices - much lower than their cost. When the hoards of people show up to buy, they simply claim the offers were "misprints". They are ready and willing to sell items (to the same crowd) that they're making huge profits on while pulling the "bait" offers. Now they've wasted the time of thousands of customers who came and left. Technically no laws have been broken - is this ethical?
also explain how this situation is different than a seller cancelling low-price auctions on e-bay.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
The misprinted ads is not quite the same circumstance as the seller cancelling the auctions. The ad misprint had no intent to sell the item at the artificially low price. With the cancellation of the auction, the seller had a last minute change of heart to sell at the low bid price. You can say that the seller should have set a minimum reserve on the item. That would have been more fair. But I think the rules of many auctions sort of favor the seller. A item can be pulled at the discretion of the auctioneer at any time in many of the real in person auctions that I have attended. I could cry foul if they were selling something that I really wanted, but the seller has the last word in many cases.
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?