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CTOTD (Controverisal thought of the day)
Monstavet
Posts: 1,235 ✭✭
Factoid 1: PCGS used to give out 70DCAMs & MS70s on a regular basis.
(I don't know how a factoid differs from a fact, but CNN seems to think it is important)
Factoid 2: PCGS no longer grades very many coin PR70DCAM or MS70. A few of the commems still get these grades, but how many regular issue coins get these grades anymore? And not nearly as many commems get the MS70 anymore in comparison.
Factoid 3: These older 70dcams and MS70s comman higher prices, and carry much more weight in the Registry (both for weighted and un-weighted sets).
These are two well-established facts, and much discussion has been made about the reasons for it, etc.
Opinion 1: Many coins that receive 69DCAM or MS69 grade today, probably would have reached PR70DCAM or MS70 if graded several years ago.
Opinion 2: Many coins graded PR70DCAM or MS70 years ago, would not receive that grade if submitted raw today, or possibly even if submitted for regrade.
CONTROVERSIAL THOUGHT (You have been warned!!): Before any MS70 or PR70DCAM coin can be entered into the Registry, it should have to be regraded by PCGS using today's standards. If it passes regrade, great! Enter it in the registry. If not, you get a refund from PCGS for the difference in the value of the coin.
Any thoughts?
And don't be a troll! I am not necesarily advocating this policy be adopted, just trying to promote discussion!
(I don't know how a factoid differs from a fact, but CNN seems to think it is important)
Factoid 2: PCGS no longer grades very many coin PR70DCAM or MS70. A few of the commems still get these grades, but how many regular issue coins get these grades anymore? And not nearly as many commems get the MS70 anymore in comparison.
Factoid 3: These older 70dcams and MS70s comman higher prices, and carry much more weight in the Registry (both for weighted and un-weighted sets).
These are two well-established facts, and much discussion has been made about the reasons for it, etc.
Opinion 1: Many coins that receive 69DCAM or MS69 grade today, probably would have reached PR70DCAM or MS70 if graded several years ago.
Opinion 2: Many coins graded PR70DCAM or MS70 years ago, would not receive that grade if submitted raw today, or possibly even if submitted for regrade.
CONTROVERSIAL THOUGHT (You have been warned!!): Before any MS70 or PR70DCAM coin can be entered into the Registry, it should have to be regraded by PCGS using today's standards. If it passes regrade, great! Enter it in the registry. If not, you get a refund from PCGS for the difference in the value of the coin.
Any thoughts?
And don't be a troll! I am not necesarily advocating this policy be adopted, just trying to promote discussion!
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Comments
I agree with both your factoids and your conclusions about changed grading standards.
BUT, I also think that standards have changed for the non-70s, as well. Moreover, these standards are sliding all over the place all the time. Thus, as to your "regrade" suggestion, really all coins would have to be resubmitted to ensure they reflect today's standards. Then we have the question about what the "master" standard is. Then, we have the issue of who pays for the regrade. Also, PCGS would have to shell out a lot of money for overgraded 70's (some of which I have, and which I would not give up to make them 69's unless I got some $$$ for the trouble).
Unfortunately, these inconsistencies may be something we have to live with. If someone spends the extra money for the "point," the point ought to be a sure thing.
Interesting thread and premise!
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
Russ, NCNE
Camelot
Sort of an aside here...it seems like so many people always think of the old holders as being under-graded...with the exception of the 70dcams. Kind of interesting, eh? All the old 70dcams are overgraded, and all the old holder coins that are not 70 dcams are undergraded. Now THAT is a controversial thought!
And of course, PCGS should pay for all of the regrades, after all, they are the ones who changed their standards!
<< <i>Hadn't thought about it for other grades....there may be something to that. >>
Such as the Casper Morgan collection??? 4 coins 10 times!!! Imagine how many other coins he has done this with. That again is just ONE collector
PCGS would suffer if this idea was placed in affect...
Dan
Many coins graded PR70DCAM or MS70 years ago, would not receive that grade if submitted raw today, or possibly even if submitted for regrade.
Change "many" to "virtually all", then I'll agree.
PCGS has already paid out thousands for downgrades on older PR70s. I doubt they want to make it millions instead. But, you're right, the only way to "fix" it is to get those old ones regraded somehow or to loosen up their standards a bit now.
Greg
But it's far cheaper for them to just loosen their standards a bit now. Fewer older coins would be overgraded by the new loosened standards, and of course the market value for PR70s would drop significantly if they opened up the supply again, which would reduce their liability exposure.
For the moment, though, there's not much problem -- the registry has locked up a bunch of PR70s in tightly held collections. Even collectors who "know better" are clutching them for the points. Smooth move by PCGS!
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
I was surprised that on some of the Heritage Lincolns the description said they have a lint mark here and there (qualified by as struck). Yet, the PCGS official standards make it very clear that even a single lint mark, whether as struck or produced later, disqualify a coin from 70DCAM status. So, Heritage is as good as saying that the piece is not a real 70DC. Yet the prices fetched were 70DC prices.
Personally I own 3 70DCs a clad Roosie, an SBA, and a clad Washington. I can't find any flaws on any of them and consider them legitimate 70DCs. On the other hand, I have been trying to buy a flawless clad Kennedy in 70DC for about a year. I have bought and examined at least 6 different ones from at least 4 different honest and credible sellers. While each coin was beautiful, each had one or more clear flaws, and all had to be returned. Am I being too picky? I don't think so. I can get a beautiful 69DC Kennedy for about $20 to $30 dollars, with either no or maybe one visable flaw. To demand perfection when the price is $400 to $500 doesn't seem picky.
I guess I would say that if you are going to buy a 70DC make sure it is perfect. Otherwise, you are just buying the plastic. If you want plastic, that's fine. Maybe for registry purposes, that's the way to go. Just know what you are buying.
Greg
You bring up an interesting point. A MS-70 allows for minor problems like lint marks and struck fragments, while the PR-70DC does not. Why the disparity?
Switch to MY GRADING SERVICE!
Send your coins in a 2x2, I'll grade it and insert a paper into the flip and staple it up for security.
MS/PR69's are $5, MS/PR70's are $10 and for $20 I'll grade it a MS/PR71
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
On the topic at hand, I don't think re-grading the existing stuff is financially feasible. What I think is best is for PCGS to develop a firm and repeatable process for grading each series. I know that market grading is subjective by nature, but even these things can be systematized.
Neil
"PCGS has already paid out thousands for downgrades on older PR70s."
Supercoin,
I have come late onto this thread, as I only get sporadic opportunities to check the boards. This matter of coins in older slabs ostensibly being overgraded is a topic of great concern to me, as my modern commem sets ("Pittsburgh Collector") consist of a high proportion of MS70's. Please elaborate on your comment concerning PCGS having paid out $$$ thousands for overgraded PR70's, as this is something of which I was unaware. When and how did it come about that PCGS would agree to do this, and is it still occurring? Did their liability in this regard apply only to proofs?
Keith says the MS70's he has seen have all appeared legit. I always examine the MS70's I purchase at high magnification and in only a single instance--my 2001D Buffalo dollar--have I found any flaws other than miniscule irregularities around the rims. The Buffalo has some microscopic bright spots in otherwise frosted areas, as well as a single microscopic linear defect that may be a strike-through mark or a nick, I don't know which. Of course, in the holder, it's impossible to examine the edge of the coin, so I don't know whether or not any of my MS70's might be downgraded for defects on their edges.
If Supercoin doesn't see this and reply, and if anyone else can answer my questions, please chime in. Thanks!
Dell
My experience, and those of the others I know about, has all been with proofs. I have only handled a few mint-state 70s (all commems).
I'm afraid the facts of the matter are that if you look at the history of the population reports, there were virtually no 70s graded for years, then a big spike of them, and then they tightened up again.
The most dramatic example I'm familiar with are the Ike proofs. There have been a total of 32 graded PR70. Guess how many of those were in one bulk submission... 30! The odds against that happening randomly with non-changing grading standards are astronomical. And, in fact, a couple of those PR70s have since been downgraded (one by me), and many others out there are no-brainer overgraded coins. I would bet huge money against any of those making PR70 again if cracked out and resubmitted.
More recently, they have tightened up, and I have not seen any recently graded MS/PR70s that didn't deserve the grade. However, even those 70's are essentially identical to premium MS69/PR70 coins, and on another day their labels could easily be reversed.
The value of a PCGS MS/PR70 is of course extremely dependent on the plastic. And while you could make the same argument about many other high-grade low-pop coins, at least many of those have a decent chance to make it back into the same holder if cracked out. Not true with 70s.
Of course, despite these facts, the prices of MS/PR70s have appreciated very handsomely over the last few years, so far be it for me to discourage anyone from collecting them (and I have in fact sold many of them).
But, if you're going to do it, do it with your eyes open, is my recommendation.
Camelot
The reason i say this is because I have about 5 super nice 69dcams 1 of which is my 1999w 5$ washington commem, that really should have been graded a 70. They probably would have been 70's a couple years ago. PCGSs grading standards change often enough... I for one, own a pr70dcam purchased from a board member here, that is definatley NOT a pr70dcam. BUT since I do not collect that series, i could care less how it looks. It fills a hole in my set to make it complete, with extra points. Yes i bought the plastic, so what.
Give me evidence of one board member here that would sell me a so called "70dcam thats not 70dcam" at a 69dcam price.. then try to change the Set Registry standards.
michelle
About 2 months ago, I sold a MS-67 1971-S Ike on E-Bay at no reserve with the caveat in the description that I felt that the coin was overgraded. I sent the coin to PCGS, but they didn't agree, but a local Ike dealer told me that he couldn't give me 67 money for it, and if I cracked it out, it would return 66. Since he's a specialist, I agreed with his assessment.
My write-up indicated that I had tried to get the coin downgraded, mentioned that PCGS blew it, and started the bidding at $1 and suggested to any board member who asked that they bid no more than MS-66 money.
I have only spoke with 2 people on this message board that actually sent a coin back... and those were coins that were purchased in the thousands of dollars. If you know of more people that did it, thats great... but the fact remains people sell the pr70dcams because they know there are people willing to pay the price.
You left us hanging -- after that refreshing honesty in your listing for the Ike, did you get 66 money or 67 money for it? Or something in between?
Dell
It went for about 75% of a solid 67, but considerably more than a 66 would have.
Supercoin and others here offer good advice on buying the MS70/PR70 coins, but that same
advice should apply to all grade levels because of the tendency towards grade inflation across
the board - with all series and all grade levels.
The fact is that there are more overgraded coins out there than undergraded coins. Depending
on the value of a coin at its assigned grade and the next higher grade, most of the PQ coins will
be resubmitted (maybe many times) until they finally achieve that next higher grade. So the PQ
MS64 is now a low-end or average MS65, the PQ MS65 is now a MS66, etc.
Over time, all those low-end and average grade coins influence the general consensus of what
a coin should look like at a given grade level, making it easier to bump the PQ coins up a notch.
I suggest that this process of grade inflation is unstoppable because it works to nearly everyone's
benefit; dealer's can play a profitable crackout/upgrade game, PCGS generates more grading fees
(and they have to give out a certain amount of upgrades so the dealers will play the game), and
wise collectors that have long-time holdings can upgrade their coins when it comes time to sell.
But everyone can't win, right? Right! So where is the downside? Perhaps the buyers of low-pop,
finest-known coins will be hurt if they are paying a premium now, only to see the the pops increase
over time, eroding the value of the holdings (unless of course, their coins are PQ and can be bumped
up!).
Another real problem is the resulting population inflation for coins that are not finest known. If a
given coin shows MS65/66/67 populations of 100/10/3, you can be fairly sure that there are
three MS67's out there, but who knows how many MS65/66 coins really exist. There may only be
six MS66 coins, with two of those having been resubmitted a couple times seeking an upgrade.
This can have a negative effect on the value of these not-finest known coins, making them seem
more common than they actually are, and tougher to find than they apparently should be.
So where does it end? Perhaps somewhere down the road (10 years?, 20 years?, 50 years?),
collectors will demand an end to overgraded coins and inflated pop reports. A grading revolution
will take place where new standards are defined and pop reports can be corrected in time by
submitting coins under the new service....and then the game can begin all over again!
But for PR70s, PCGS has put the brakes on giving out the grade. So, it's grade deflation -- for the moment anyway. Maybe once you inflate to 70, you rebound back the other way, and we're at the start of an extended grade-deflation period.
But regardless, you'd be hard-pressed to find any class of coins more dependent on the holder -- and PCGS' future grading policy -- than PR70s.
So last year's 70's are this year's 69's and next year's 68's?!?!
Now that isn't going to help anyone, so I will singlehandedly attempt to prop up the
market and extend the offer to buy any PCGS 70 coins at 69 prices before they fall to
68 values...big of me, eh?
Ken
Following the general (and very appropriate) comments here, in summary, the best investment in numismatic today is buying PR70DCAM and/or MS70? Make sense?
Edson
cant say i dont understand it though...what would you do.....your a public company....your the ceo.....you need to make your numbers for you to make your stock option allocation and bonus.....you need to imcrease revenue.....which will inturn increase the bottomline......well....all you have to do is go back into the grading room and say boys......tighten up.......all the submitters start getting their coins back ....not in the original grade it was sent but a grade lower.....even 2 grades lower......now you have to submit over and over until you quit........one thing for sure .....the revenue goes up.....JUST LIKE INTENDED
thats why i said....i`ve solved my problem .....i just go submit to ngc where they are more consistent
now i know .......some of you are going to say " but pcgs coins are worth more"....well that is true for alot of coins.....however it is NOT the case for the coins i buy nor is it true for a lot of coins...in first day law school they teach a latin saying.....res ipsa loquitor....it means the thing speaks for itself...........so buy the coin not the slab
now back to this worth more stuff....the reason is simple.......its sort of reverse of the theme of this board ( pgcs tightening)...but i already explained why there is a short term tightening at the puublic company.....the reason is pcgs coins are worth more in general is actually a 2 pronged reason ...first**** they undergrade coins and ngc properly grades them.....secondly****pcgs coins are bid higher by dealers who are just waiting to pick your boxes of just those very undergraded ones....not the properly graded ones or the overgraded ones...just the ones that fuel resubmissions....remember dealers do this daily for a living ....and has his puilse on the market ...its very tuff to beat the "pro"....
so you see because they do so much undergrading they ....by doing so.....have created a market by the dealers for those very same undergraded coins thus they are bid higher
NOW THE CAPPER.....WHO PAYS FOR ALL THE STOCK OPTIONS...MILLION DOLLAR HOUSES ...BOATS....FANCY CARS AND THE 500,000 YEAR SALERIES........THE COLLECTOR DOES!!! MMMMMM.....OUCH!!!!!!
thats why i submit to ngc where they are alot more consistent
now to prove my point...you have all used the term "upgrade"...well after talking to allen greenspan last month we will call it "gradeflation".....if you buy pq coins... they can upgrade and thats a fact.....if they dont and they are pq ...they will at some time in the future .......so anyone who wants to sell me a pq coin that bids at lets say 1000 and its in an ngc holder ....im buying...and if that very same coin would be 1200 in a pcgs holder....im buying it.....and if that very same coin upgrades to 3000 in value in the next grade...im buying........
no who is getting screwed here ....all i wanted was a honest grade....and i get it .....at ngc.........but remember i only buy pq coins
now lets do the math...i make 20% or 300%..gotts like that
in closing ....so res ipsa loquitor.......all the services are really doing is ranking coins.....they are slowly identifing ( seeing them all ).....and filling the zeros on the pop report
fyi in 1986 when pcgs started ..they never thought a commem ( not modern the old ones ) was higher than 65....when you saw a 66......WOW!!!!well the 65s are now or will be 68s and the 66s are now the infrequent 69s....they were then the best and they still are the best.....except for that ole rat hole coin everybody`s looking for...some unibformed executor of an estate who has to liquidate and calss some coin shop....gets a price on the phone and sells it to the shop owner...the typical owner really doesnt know about grade flation either ....sometimes..... and he sells it on ebay or over the phone to the local big show circuit dealers ( every big city has one or several )....who inturn buys a whopper for 600 and sells it for 15000 on the bourse floor...it happens evry year a coupla times a year
alright then ...im out!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I don't know about that, but 2 years ago it was. Ask me again in 2 years.
I think from a financial standpoint, there are far better risk/rewards to be had in other non-coin markets. That applies to 99% of coin investments as well, but the PR70s in particular have a lot of wild-cards in the deck.
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Below are two affordable examples of why sometimes NGC is better than PCGS and vice versa. Even ANACS and ICG can never be ruled out.
Look at this 1940-S NGC MS-66 25c........ I bought this because I have never seen a PCGS graded MS-66 this good.
Yet on the other hand, I have never seen any other grading service come close to the quality of this PCGS graded proof quarter at this grade level.
I will admit that both are older NGC and PCGS slabs.
frosty lookin coins ....way to go
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Your logic should favor Oreville's two coins especially since they're in the old green slabs.
to be very consistent....well i cant speak for all series
For the FS Jefferson series, there was a time 5-7 years ago when checking the teletrade auction catalogs, it was very easy to have a MS67 modern coin as the pages were flooded with them. There would be hundreds of NGC 67's listed for every modern denomination. And it was a common scenario
to see the same at the tables of many of the dealers at the larger shows. I have looked through hundreds of NGC 67 FS Jeffersons at those tables and I just couldn't add any to my collection from what I saw in those holders. The dealers couldn't give them away although I'll admit I took a couple then but they're gone now and today I don't have one single FS Jefferson certified by NGC in my collection. I have long since have virtually given up on them. I have had better luck with them concerning the proofs as I have 5-6.
Things may have change since then but seldom do the NGC FS show up in ebay.
Of course, this doesn't ring true with the series you collect and certify with NGC. Maybe I need to get on the horn and start hounding them or something to get their butts in gear about how to grade my series.
I'm just giving my opinion here about what I think or have thought about NGC concerning my series.
Just the last couple of days I have read a few of your posts in other threads concerning the morgan
dollar collections and I can wholeheartedly agree with your every bit of input no matter how abrasive it may seem to get. You are very knowledgable with many years of experience and it's an honor to read the insights only you can provide concerning the building of Jack Lee's Morgan dollar collection.
I don't have a PCGS centered collection nor do I plan to do so any time soon. I look for PQ FS Jefferson's
and have upgraded then several times. The slab numbers only get me in that ballpark to locate possible PQ coins. I have PQ coins in MS64 and 65 slabs that look better then some coins I have in MS66 and 67 slabs.
Eventually I would like to crack them all out and place them in the air-tite holders ( if those rings provided don't tone my coins) if I can find a way to house them in a compact tray-like case.
Oreville,
Very nice coins and pics.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
thanks for the note...i know what you mean about fullsteps........it sounds like to me you have been well on your way to building a truely great set.......
good luck with the hunt
and dont take any wooden nickels..........:-)....geeez i just had to say that..:-)
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
But my goodness...............Leo......that is YOUR 1953-S FS 5c????????? What a monster! Where how when and a little about that baby??? I can't figure this one out....it looks sligtly off center yet I don't see the other side having extra metal. Can you explain this coin?
approached this one.
The coin is all there, it's position is tilted in it's ANACS holder giving that off-center look. If I had taken a straight on picture, the coin would have looked even stranger, like an egg or oval shaped. But anyway, the reverse is EDS and the obverse is very close. I've had it for 5-6 years. It's one of many cornerstones from my 12 year collection. The story goes it came from a roll from a
old timers collection in Michigan. The lofty sticker price is just another way of saying it's not for sale.
Do you have plans to see if your two coins will upgrade?
Gregg
Somehow, my kids end up with those wooden nickels. The dealers hand them out from the coin shows we go to and the kids get a kick out of them. They have accumulated over the years and when we come across a few, they remember the coin shows and the cities they were in.
Cladking
It's a nice one. Thanks for the nice comment.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
>>>Leo, that cannot be. This coin is "NOT" in a PCGS holder>>>>>
there are tons of coins in other holders..........and numerous complete collections that are the finest of the finest......surely you know the greatest seated and barber sets of dimes.....quarters......and halves are all in ngc holders.......and they are living in oklahoma as we speak..........i sold the owner my buddy epsen barber proof quarter....a stunning proof 69.........and it is a dup now
.....when you get to see it .....and you will soon..........you will slobber every where
....and the king of siam set
....bet you didnt know the greatest set of proof mogans ever assembled ....the jack lee set of morgans is all in ncg holders
....the only known 87-o branchmint proof is in an ngc holder
....geez i could go on for days ...but you get my point....maybe
i`m out
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Keep giving examples of why they are wrong, it is enjoyable reading.
When I eventually dispose of my coins I want proof that these coins were graded "way back when."
I own a proof coin that has already seen three SEPARATE upgrades at PCGS. Enough is enough! So what? I liked it more when it was in the original PCGS holder!
No..... these coins stay where they are! You see the attention they already garner now? Just you wait another 10 years!
I happen to think that NGC was a wonderful grading service back in the pre 1997 era with 19th century proofs and mint state mercury dimes. I have a bunch of them and they stay where they are too!
One of them is the 1916-D dime in NGC MS-67FB and I think it is more beautiful than the Dominick specimin of the same grade at PCGS. I will only cross it over to PCGS if they 8 it and I am not going to even try.
But this is not to endorse NGC as they have blown it too! In fact, I have a coin that NGC clearly misattributed it compeltely wrong and trying to cover it up a la "Enron." Someday they will get what is due them. I will state to you that PCGS has never grossly erred with me as NGC has.
been buying ngc since time ........and have been having a blast
orve
>>>>Leo: I generally do not take my coins in for upgrading. I like undergraded coins. I like the old inserts.
When I eventually dispose of my coins I want proof that these coins were graded "way back when.">>>>>>
i thought the same thing....however...it cost me about 250,000 thinking that...as i said on some other board i challenged some people to the crack out game and had no takers....i left mine in old green holders........one big buyer at my auction ( mike casper ) has had six figures worth of hits on my "undergraded "coins...which all came out of my pocket and into his.........the fact of the matter is......simple.....too many in the high end morgan market arent as good of graders as they should be and have a tuff time telling a 65 from a 66....and when you have a big spread coin i dont blame them......AN EXACT CASE IN POINT...........my 91-p....i got it from wayne miller..it was a monster and the second beat by far i have ever seen behind jack lee`s 67....there were no 66 coins graded and rightfully so....as they are really markey and abraided...my coin was no doubt the second finest and the 66 grade had been always zero for 15 years.......jacks sold for 75,000 to gilley ...i knew mine was worth at least half that at around 37,500..........it went to casper below 10,000 and he made all the money
i hate to say this but here is what i do............i play 4 or 5 coins a show....i call it christmas time........while all the crack-out guys are getting 1 out of 10 which is not too bad if they send in big spread coins......i on the other hand have a huge advantage because my coins have been in my possession for a long time and many were bought form those very crack out guys that didnt work before......and if you believe in gradeflation where they are ranking coins than one can deduce i must be doing much better than those very crack out guys.....reason being mine havnt been tried for a while....thus i can tell you i usually hit a very large %...like 3 of 4.....3 of 5.........4 for 6........i have even gone 4 for 4 and 5 for 5.......i usually use a big dealers who want to help the quality of his submissions ....so finding someone is no problem....it always tickels me when the grades come back and they say wow....you did great.....they think i`m a grading guru and become quite friendly after that.............yea i guess i can grade and everyday i hope im getting better ( after 30 years ).....but the reality is i had some verifying help when i bought the coin in the first place
so i suggest you night try my christmas method ( i hate to feed the services but the facts are the facts )......and if you wait until the last minute you wont go 200 for 200.......but you could if you had great coins and you did it little by little
FACTOID:.......IF THE WORLD SAID YOU HAD ONE OF THE BEST IN 1986 AND IT WAS IN A 65 HOLDER THEN ......THEN IT IS STILL ONE OF THE BEST TODAY....AND IF THERE IS A LIKE KIND COIN IN A 67 HOLDER TODAY ......CHANCES ARE YOURS SHOULD BE AT LEAST A 67 AND MAYBE A 68.....FOR THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE
AND I STILL THINK THE SERVICES ARE RANKING COINS....and that is why they have price sheets...to indicate which ones are the best .....for which if you want it you have to pay.........
now for the little guy the same goes.......if one searches for the pq coins and he pays 40 dollars today for a generic morgan in 64 and it upgrades to a 65 he just doubled his money.....if he streches for the 400 91-p in 64 and it upgrades to a 65 he slaughters them for a 15 times bagger
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>AND I STILL THINK THE SERVICES ARE RANKING COINS......... >>
Hmmm...not technical grading and not even market grading but just a ranking system.......hmmm. I never thought of it that way.
There is still something about me being a collector. It is not just about the money.....
Perhaps when I get more into a frame of mind of someday selling then I might think differently. But right now, I am happy.
When my cost basis on a 1934-D quarter in PCGS MS-65 is $53.50 (I bought back in 1971) what's the difference to me?
Somehow I have a feeling these undergraded coins will be worth more in their undergraded condition........just look at what happend to the 1955 DDO cent that sold for a fortune in a PCGS MS-65R holder then got slabbed as a NGC MS-66R then had to be sold at a loss.