@Sircointalot69 said:
Alls Im saying is that I cannot find these die markers that are on my coin anywhere on Vam world. The only coin I can match it to is the Jack Lee example with the polishing lines over the date . the hook at the bottom of the 'V' in "TRUST" is another thing that stands out on the Jack Lee coin . If anyone can show me other wise I'd be super greatfull !
this is the important part:
We've got an author, an expert, on peace dollars saying yours is not a proof- there is another authority authenticator here saying the same
even if:
a. yours matches the lee specimen in every way, it would not change it that yours is not a proof
b. even if yours is not on the vam site, it would not change that yours is not a proof
compare it to the Lee specimen and you are not proving yours is a proof, you are proving the lee specimen is not a proof
Ok, so if that;s the case then why is it graded as such by NGC it should have been disqualified by NGC and not sold as such for a crazy premium ! But there are few owners of that coin over the years who are going to be in shock if it has now been disproven to be a proof ?
this has been discussed above
the obvious answer is that it would be a mistake and a mistake over owners and auction houses.
1964 sms coins are being re-thought as we speak.
perhaps, if the current owner of the lee coin reads this, the person can match the lee coin in hand with your high res closeups and get some official acknowledgement if the coins match
@Sircointalot69 said:
Ok, so if that;s the case then why is it graded as such by NGC it should have been disqualified by NGC and not sold as such for a crazy premium !
Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. The TPGs even have a process for reviewing decisions that may have been made in error.
@Sircointalot69 said:
Ok, so if that;s the case then why is it graded as such by NGC it should have been disqualified by NGC and not sold as such for a crazy premium !
Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. The TPGs even have a process for reviewing decisions that may have been made in error.
Yeah but there's alot of money to be made on mistakes ! So people are being duped with a coin misattributed I guess that's ok since money is to be made. It should be publicized that the Jack Lee coin is not a Proof and just a business strike by the experts out there especially the fellow Roger B. Maybe he can revise his book then ?
@Sircointalot69 said:
Alls Im saying is that I cannot find these die markers that are on my coin anywhere on Vam world. The only coin I can match it to is the Jack Lee example with the polishing lines over the date . the hook at the bottom of the 'V' in "TRUST" is another thing that stands out on the Jack Lee coin . If anyone can show me other wise I'd be super greatfull !
this is the important part:
We've got an author, an expert, on peace dollars saying yours is not a proof- there is another authority authenticator here saying the same
even if:
a. yours matches the lee specimen in every way, it would not change it that yours is not a proof
b. even if yours is not on the vam site, it would not change that yours is not a proof
compare it to the Lee specimen and you are not proving yours is a proof, you are proving the lee specimen is not a proof
Ok, so if that;s the case then why is it graded as such by NGC it should have been disqualified by NGC and not sold as such for a crazy premium ! But there are few owners of that coin over the years who are going to be in shock if it has now been disproven to be a proof ?
this has been discussed above
the obvious answer is that it would be a mistake and a mistake over owners and auction houses.
1964 sms coins are being re-thought as we speak.
perhaps, if the current owner of the lee coin reads this, the person can match the lee coin in hand with your high res closeups and get some official acknowledgement if the coins match
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
@IkesT said: @Sircointalot69 You can't just look at one tiny die marker that may or may not show up on the coin, given the strike, the die state, or even the lighting. You have to look at many die markers. If you cannot match your coin to the VAM-1F, it means you have gone beyond the limits of your skill and it is time to for you to move on to something else.
I'm not just looking at one mark ! All the die lines and marks on my coin match the Jack Lee coin they're all the same and in the exact same spot please review the pictures i posted . My coin has yellow arrows and I wrote in red on the Lee coin .
It appears that no matter what anyone says, you’re not able or willing to let it go. And I can understand why.
Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.
No, I'm trying to put this to bed once and for all ! but here I have a coin that matches a graded example, why would I think otherwise. You guys are hardcore collectors of these- would you pass it up as not being a proof ?
Even though I and a number of other posters don’t think it’s a Proof, because it might match a graded example, it’s understandable that you can’t “put this to bed once and for all.” And I can’t imagine that changing, no matter what anyone else might post here. So, as I posted previously, “Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Sircointalot69 said:
Yeah but there's alot of money to be made on mistakes ! So people are being duped with a coin misattributed I guess that's ok since money is to be made.
Just to be clear, I never said that.
@Sircointalot69 said:
It should be publicized that the Jack Lee coin is not a Proof and just a business strike by the experts out there...
I'm not an expert on the subject, but it sounds like (based on comments above) it has been publicized. To what extent, I certainly couldn't say.
@Sircointalot69 said:
especially the fellow Roger B. Maybe he can revise his book then ?
@IkesT said: @Sircointalot69 You can't just look at one tiny die marker that may or may not show up on the coin, given the strike, the die state, or even the lighting. You have to look at many die markers. If you cannot match your coin to the VAM-1F, it means you have gone beyond the limits of your skill and it is time to for you to move on to something else.
I'm not just looking at one mark ! All the die lines and marks on my coin match the Jack Lee coin they're all the same and in the exact same spot please review the pictures i posted . My coin has yellow arrows and I wrote in red on the Lee coin .
It appears that no matter what anyone says, you’re not able or willing to let it go. And I can understand why.
Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.
No, I'm trying to put this to bed once and for all ! but here I have a coin that matches a graded example, why would I think otherwise. You guys are hardcore collectors of these- would you pass it up as not being a proof ?
Even though I and a number of other posters don’t think it’s a Proof, because it might match a graded example, it’s understandable that you can’t “put this to bed once and for all.” And I can’t imagine that changing, no matter what anyone else might post here. So, as I posted previously, “Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.”
That is not a problem to resubmit it . I sent it to PCGS and it came back MS63 I guess I'll send it to NGC then since I understand that PCGS doesn't entertain certifying Proof peace dollars or am I mistaken ?
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
sure, but with more experience you'd have seen the coin without the need of magnification and readily saw it wasn't a proof, the passed by it quickly without examination.
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
sure, but with more experience you'd have seen the coin without the need of magnification and readily saw it wasn't a proof, the passed by it quickly without examination.
I have to disagree with you on that because if you actually see it in hand it looks way more nicer that the PCGS pictures .
If you can explain how I can put up a video of it maybe you'll see what I mean.
I am really enjoying this conversation as it's bringing out difficult to distill information on proof Peace dollars.
From the initial images, I would not have guessed MS63, thought AU58 or ~MS62, but nice result!
As has been mentioned a few times, yes, proof dies were used to strike coins for circulation. I have/have had several VAM-1H and 1F coins, ones that are better struck than the one you have. You can rest assured you do not have an unattributed proof.
I'll see if I can get my photo setup back up and running to contribute some more images here. I also have an absolutely hammered one but seems to be from a different set of dies that I have not identified yet... it doesn't help that someone cleaned it at some point in its lifetime.
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
sure, but with more experience you'd have seen the coin without the need of magnification and readily saw it wasn't a proof, the passed by it quickly without examination.
I have to disagree with you on that because if you actually see it in hand it looks way more nicer that the PCGS pictures .
If you can explain how I can put up a video of it maybe you'll see what I mean.
there is no way to attach videos.
youtube videos will link and play directly in the pcgs forum webpages
photos can't do the blandness to the coin that is obviously there.
@Sircointalot69 said:
Alls Im saying is that I cannot find these die markers that are on my coin anywhere on Vam world. The only coin I can match it to is the Jack Lee example with the polishing lines over the date . the hook at the bottom of the 'V' in "TRUST" is another thing that stands out on the Jack Lee coin . If anyone can show me other wise I'd be super greatfull !
this is the important part:
We've got an author, an expert, on peace dollars saying yours is not a proof- there is another authority authenticator here saying the same
even if:
a. yours matches the lee specimen in every way, it would not change it that yours is not a proof
b. even if yours is not on the vam site, it would not change that yours is not a proof
compare it to the Lee specimen and you are not proving yours is a proof, you are proving the lee specimen is not a proof
Ok, so if that;s the case then why is it graded as such by NGC it should have been disqualified by NGC and not sold as such for a crazy premium ! But there are few owners of that coin over the years who are going to be in shock if it has now been disproven to be a proof ?
this has been discussed above
the obvious answer is that it would be a mistake and a mistake over owners and auction houses.
1964 sms coins are being re-thought as we speak.
perhaps, if the current owner of the lee coin reads this, the person can match the lee coin in hand with your high res closeups and get some official acknowledgement if the coins match
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
To add some context here - there are two members in this thread who have cherrypicked a 1921 Satin Proof Peace dollar (the exact thing that is being alleged to have been done here).
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
sure, but with more experience you'd have seen the coin without the need of magnification and readily saw it wasn't a proof, the passed by it quickly without examination.
I have to disagree with you on that because if you actually see it in hand it looks way more nicer that the PCGS pictures .
If you can explain how I can put up a video of it maybe you'll see what I mean.
there is no way to attach videos.
youtube videos will link and play directly in the pcgs forum webpages
photos can't do the blandness to the coin that is obviously there.
I’ve seen videos posted here.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@IkesT said: @Sircointalot69 You can't just look at one tiny die marker that may or may not show up on the coin, given the strike, the die state, or even the lighting. You have to look at many die markers. If you cannot match your coin to the VAM-1F, it means you have gone beyond the limits of your skill and it is time to for you to move on to something else.
I'm not just looking at one mark ! All the die lines and marks on my coin match the Jack Lee coin they're all the same and in the exact same spot please review the pictures i posted . My coin has yellow arrows and I wrote in red on the Lee coin .
It appears that no matter what anyone says, you’re not able or willing to let it go. And I can understand why.
Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.
No, I'm trying to put this to bed once and for all ! but here I have a coin that matches a graded example, why would I think otherwise. You guys are hardcore collectors of these- would you pass it up as not being a proof ?
Even though I and a number of other posters don’t think it’s a Proof, because it might match a graded example, it’s understandable that you can’t “put this to bed once and for all.” And I can’t imagine that changing, no matter what anyone else might post here. So, as I posted previously, “Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.”
That is not a problem to resubmit it . I sent it to PCGS and it came back MS63 I guess I'll send it to NGC then since I understand that PCGS doesn't entertain certifying Proof peace dollars or am I mistaken ?
>
You’re mistaken.
Here’s a screen shot of the PCGS population report:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld - It is evident that PCGS has quietly changed their policy on these coins.
For the longest time they had graded the one 64 and said that was the only one they would grade. Recently an NGC PR63 crossed and beaned, which would be a departure from that policy.
@FlyingAl said: @MFeld - It is evident that PCGS has quietly changed their policy on these coins.
For the longest time they had graded the one 64 and said that was the only one they would grade. Recently an NGC PR63 crossed and beaned, which would be a departure from that policy.
That sounds similar to a change they made (a few years ago?) to their long standing policy of not awarding the “SP” designation to any 1907 High Relief $20’s.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Got the setup running again, but with just one light.
VAM 1H
VAM 1H #2
VAM 1P- I misremembered this coin as 1F. It shares a reverse die with 1H.
The hammered one that I have not identified VAM for
@IkesT said: @Sircointalot69 You can't just look at one tiny die marker that may or may not show up on the coin, given the strike, the die state, or even the lighting. You have to look at many die markers. If you cannot match your coin to the VAM-1F, it means you have gone beyond the limits of your skill and it is time to for you to move on to something else.
I'm not just looking at one mark ! All the die lines and marks on my coin match the Jack Lee coin they're all the same and in the exact same spot please review the pictures i posted . My coin has yellow arrows and I wrote in red on the Lee coin .
It appears that no matter what anyone says, you’re not able or willing to let it go. And I can understand why.
Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.
No, I'm trying to put this to bed once and for all ! but here I have a coin that matches a graded example, why would I think otherwise. You guys are hardcore collectors of these- would you pass it up as not being a proof ?
Even though I and a number of other posters don’t think it’s a Proof, because it might match a graded example, it’s understandable that you can’t “put this to bed once and for all.” And I can’t imagine that changing, no matter what anyone else might post here. So, as I posted previously, “Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.”
That is not a problem to resubmit it . I sent it to PCGS and it came back MS63 I guess I'll send it to NGC then since I understand that PCGS doesn't entertain certifying Proof peace dollars or am I mistaken ?
>
You’re mistaken.
Here’s a screen shot of the PCGS population report:
I did hear that PCGS did not grade proof peace dollars from all different places dealers etc. So I don't know what to believe anymore 😩
I think i figured it out I had to convert the short video into a GIF format . I hope these will show what I'm saying about it being a satin proof BTW it was in a PCGS as Genuine Non Gradable and resubmitted and came back a 63 grade ! ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@Sircointalot69 As it turns out, we had both been looking at some of the wrong die markers on this coin. The 1921 Peace dollar master hubs actually had scratches on them, and of course, any scratch on a master hub or master die is ultimately transferred to the working dies. Some of the markers we were looking at were actually these master hub scratches. That being said, you are correct that the coin is not the VAM-1F. Not sure which VAM it is (if any listed), but I did find another business strike example (see below). This one is graded NGC MS63, so I would think this is a good indication that NGC would view your coin as a business strike as well. You may want to consider that before you give up the PCGS plastic, if that matters to you.
Like your coin, the one below also shows signs of being struck by a rusted die, which is also consistent with being a later die state business strike (rather than a proof).
@Sircointalot69 As it turns out, we had both been looking at some of the wrong die markers on this coin. The 1921 Peace dollar master hubs actually had scratches on them, and of course, any scratch on a master hub or master die is ultimately transferred to the working dies. Some of the markers we were looking at were actually these master hub scratches. That being said, you are correct that the coin is not the VAM-1F. Not sure which VAM it is (if any listed), but I did find another business strike example (see below). This one is graded NGC MS63, so I would think this is a good indication that NGC would view your coin as a business strike as well. You may want to consider that before you give up the PCGS plastic, if that matters to you.
Like your coin, the one below also shows signs of being struck by a rusted die, which is also consistent with being a later die state business strike (rather than a proof).
Nice find ! so there are others out there. I'm just wondering if the jack lee coin was certified proof in error? Poor guy/s who paid all that money....... Sheesh !
I was thinking the same thing. At what point during proof production would the obverse die become rusty? (it wouldn't)
I think the OP coin is VAM-1AE. https://vamworld.com/wiki/1921-P_Peace_VAM-1AE
I'm the OP by the way, lol ! yeah I looked at the 1AE it certainly has the rusting but its lacking the polishing lines and hook die scratch/gouge/
tail, under the V in TRUST .
@Sircointalot69 As it turns out, we had both been looking at some of the wrong die markers on this coin. The 1921 Peace dollar master hubs actually had scratches on them, and of course, any scratch on a master hub or master die is ultimately transferred to the working dies. Some of the markers we were looking at were actually these master hub scratches. That being said, you are correct that the coin is not the VAM-1F. Not sure which VAM it is (if any listed), but I did find another business strike example (see below). This one is graded NGC MS63, so I would think this is a good indication that NGC would view your coin as a business strike as well. You may want to consider that before you give up the PCGS plastic, if that matters to you.
Like your coin, the one below also shows signs of being struck by a rusted die, which is also consistent with being a later die state business strike (rather than a proof).
Nice find ! so there are others out there. I'm just wondering if the jack lee coin was certified proof in error? Poor guy/s who paid all that money....... Sheesh !
Peoples imagination starts spending the windfall the sec they start thinking they have something special. Most Proof Peace Dollars in holders that were found on tables are not proofs even if they get them in Proof holders.
That a coin was dipped or cleaned does not determine if it was manufactured on an hydraulic medal press. A TPG could safely say both "proof and cleaned" if the coin meets the detail and manufacturing artifact standard. (After all, "authentication" comes before "preservation.")
The OPs new photos are nicer, but the coin is unchanged.
Until an individual or organization invests the time and expertise to differentiate between the types of presses used, anyone can claim some sort of special status for a 1921.
@RogerB said:
That a coin was dipped or cleaned does not determine if it was manufactured on an hydraulic medal press. A TPG could safely say both "proof and cleaned" if the coin meets the detail and manufacturing artifact standard.
Until an individual or organization invests the time and expertise to differentiate between the types of presses used, anyone can claim some sort of special status for an electrical box punchout.
Hi Roger , it is Graded MS-63 by PCGS but not as a proof .
Axial lighting can do this, which makes the surface difficult to evaluate. In hand, it's consistent with the "new die" look expected of a satin proof or coin off new dies. However, it shows evidence of dipping.
The point is in comparing details and becoming aware of commonalities and differences. If we line up all "authenticated" sandblast proof 1921s there would be a better sample. Then, compare those results to all authenticated Satin proof 1921s; and then compare candidate coins in both categories. Lastly, identify and separate results by press type -- hydraulic vs toggle.
Comments
this has been discussed above
the obvious answer is that it would be a mistake and a mistake over owners and auction houses.
1964 sms coins are being re-thought as we speak.
perhaps, if the current owner of the lee coin reads this, the person can match the lee coin in hand with your high res closeups and get some official acknowledgement if the coins match
Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. The TPGs even have a process for reviewing decisions that may have been made in error.
Yeah but there's alot of money to be made on mistakes ! So people are being duped with a coin misattributed I guess that's ok since money is to be made. It should be publicized that the Jack Lee coin is not a Proof and just a business strike by the experts out there especially the fellow Roger B. Maybe he can revise his book then ?
I agree with this ! But you do see why I got all excited about finding this coin ...wouldn't anybody ?
Even though I and a number of other posters don’t think it’s a Proof, because it might match a graded example, it’s understandable that you can’t “put this to bed once and for all.” And I can’t imagine that changing, no matter what anyone else might post here. So, as I posted previously, “Your other option is to spend a large amount of money to resubmit the coin.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just to be clear, I never said that.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but it sounds like (based on comments above) it has been publicized. To what extent, I certainly couldn't say.
Send him a PM and see what he says.
That is not a problem to resubmit it . I sent it to PCGS and it came back MS63 I guess I'll send it to NGC then since I understand that PCGS doesn't entertain certifying Proof peace dollars or am I mistaken ?
For this coin……resubmitting is logical .
sure, but with more experience you'd have seen the coin without the need of magnification and readily saw it wasn't a proof, the passed by it quickly without examination.
I have to disagree with you on that because if you actually see it in hand it looks way more nicer that the PCGS pictures .
If you can explain how I can put up a video of it maybe you'll see what I mean.
It doesn't matter how nice the coin looks, it matters how much it looks like a satin proof.
I am really enjoying this conversation as it's bringing out difficult to distill information on proof Peace dollars.
From the initial images, I would not have guessed MS63, thought AU58 or ~MS62, but nice result!
As has been mentioned a few times, yes, proof dies were used to strike coins for circulation. I have/have had several VAM-1H and 1F coins, ones that are better struck than the one you have. You can rest assured you do not have an unattributed proof.
I'll see if I can get my photo setup back up and running to contribute some more images here. I also have an absolutely hammered one but seems to be from a different set of dies that I have not identified yet... it doesn't help that someone cleaned it at some point in its lifetime.
Collector, occasional seller
there is no way to attach videos.
youtube videos will link and play directly in the pcgs forum webpages
photos can't do the blandness to the coin that is obviously there.
oh, and the graders saw the coin in hand and rendered their determination which matches the consensus here
To add some context here - there are two members in this thread who have cherrypicked a 1921 Satin Proof Peace dollar (the exact thing that is being alleged to have been done here).
They both agree your coin is not a Proof.
Coin Photography
I’ve seen videos posted here.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
>
You’re mistaken.
Here’s a screen shot of the PCGS population report:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld - It is evident that PCGS has quietly changed their policy on these coins.
For the longest time they had graded the one 64 and said that was the only one they would grade. Recently an NGC PR63 crossed and beaned, which would be a departure from that policy.
Coin Photography
a glance says it's not a proof
i disagree, and agree. submitting alone is a waste of time, but perhaps ngc needs to see this coin with the Lee specimen
however, op, the graders don't give notes to the little people and generally don't spend time reading evidence in the absence of the second coin
op, can you link to the auction you are pulling the lee photos from?
That sounds similar to a change they made (a few years ago?) to their long standing policy of not awarding the “SP” designation to any 1907 High Relief $20’s.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
there are animated gifs that look like video clips, then there are videos like in .mp4 format.
i've seen animated gifs
if they can be posted then look up using the html in the text box. it will need to be hosted somewhere
Got the setup running again, but with just one light.
VAM 1H
VAM 1H #2
VAM 1P- I misremembered this coin as 1F. It shares a reverse die with 1H.
The hammered one that I have not identified VAM for
Collector, occasional seller
The images above can be opened in a new tab for full size viewing.
Collector, occasional seller
a video
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2022/aWWmzI.mp4
an animated gif
it may be a new one. send it in.
It is on Heritage here :
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-peace-dollars/1921-1-satin-pr66-ngc/a/1356-3804.s#
Yes I Have about three 1H 1921's so I know exactly what they look like. But thx for posting your pics I appreciate it !
I may have even sold that 1H on eBay a few years ago 😎
I did hear that PCGS did not grade proof peace dollars from all different places dealers etc. So I don't know what to believe anymore 😩
I'm a small fish in a big pond I guess !
I think i figured it out I had to convert the short video into a GIF format . I hope these will show what I'm saying about it being a satin proof BTW it was in a PCGS as Genuine Non Gradable and resubmitted and came back a 63 grade ! ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I told ya it looks way different from the pics I originally posted !
it's been dipped
Dipped or not It was regraded MS-63 !
But you see what I'm saying about it being a proof- that shimmer is super nice !
Looks like a nice business strike. 👍
@Sircointalot69 As it turns out, we had both been looking at some of the wrong die markers on this coin. The 1921 Peace dollar master hubs actually had scratches on them, and of course, any scratch on a master hub or master die is ultimately transferred to the working dies. Some of the markers we were looking at were actually these master hub scratches. That being said, you are correct that the coin is not the VAM-1F. Not sure which VAM it is (if any listed), but I did find another business strike example (see below). This one is graded NGC MS63, so I would think this is a good indication that NGC would view your coin as a business strike as well. You may want to consider that before you give up the PCGS plastic, if that matters to you.
Like your coin, the one below also shows signs of being struck by a rusted die, which is also consistent with being a later die state business strike (rather than a proof).
Nice find ! so there are others out there. I'm just wondering if the jack lee coin was certified proof in error? Poor guy/s who paid all that money....... Sheesh !
I was thinking the same thing. At what point during proof production would the obverse die become rusty? (it wouldn't)
I think the OP coin is VAM-1AE. https://vamworld.com/wiki/1921-P_Peace_VAM-1AE
Collector, occasional seller
I'm the OP by the way, lol ! yeah I looked at the 1AE it certainly has the rusting but its lacking the polishing lines and hook die scratch/gouge/
tail, under the V in TRUST .
this point has been made twice previously
the shimmer is flat because it has been over dipped. i'll guess this is why it was in a details holder.
Peoples imagination starts spending the windfall the sec they start thinking they have something special. Most Proof Peace Dollars in holders that were found on tables are not proofs even if they get them in Proof holders.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
That a coin was dipped or cleaned does not determine if it was manufactured on an hydraulic medal press. A TPG could safely say both "proof and cleaned" if the coin meets the detail and manufacturing artifact standard. (After all, "authentication" comes before "preservation.")
The OPs new photos are nicer, but the coin is unchanged.
Until an individual or organization invests the time and expertise to differentiate between the types of presses used, anyone can claim some sort of special status for a 1921.
Hi Roger , it is Graded MS-63 by PCGS but not as a proof .
because it's not a proof. it is just shiny
Axial lighting can do this, which makes the surface difficult to evaluate. In hand, it's consistent with the "new die" look expected of a satin proof or coin off new dies. However, it shows evidence of dipping.
The point is in comparing details and becoming aware of commonalities and differences. If we line up all "authenticated" sandblast proof 1921s there would be a better sample. Then, compare those results to all authenticated Satin proof 1921s; and then compare candidate coins in both categories. Lastly, identify and separate results by press type -- hydraulic vs toggle.
I think he's saying that PCGS and CAC both got it wrong and the coin isn't a proof.
He's just wrong. The coin is clearly not weakly struck.
Coin Photography
Thank you. Your original response wasn't clear.