GTG - Impossible Edition? (1911 Proof Quarter Eagle)
FlyingAl
Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are some coins out there where I just throw my hands up and give an educated guess. They're usually the coins where I never expected to need to know how to grade them, so I never learned the special rules for those types or took the time to look at enough examples to be able to figure out the rules behind them.
The first instance this came to get me was during the FUN grading contest NGC put on where I called a MS67 Pan-Pac $50 Round MS65... whoops. It was incredible, I just had zero point of reference to start from.
The second instance was yesterday, when @Eldorado9 pulled out a 1911 $2 1/2 in Proof. Sandblast gold is so very special, and so very rare. I've only ever really seen it in cases at major shows, and only as display items, so never close enough to see the things you need to see how to grade.
When we were discussing the assigned grade, we naturally wondered how they were graded. I figured that it was fairly similar to most Proofs (major marks/hairlines first, and then other minor color distractions/surface distractions second). That remains my guess today, since I don't have a professional grader telling me how they do it in the grading room. Spotting and staining seems to be the major issues with these coins and the major distinction between gem grades, but maybe @MFeld will help us out here with the specifics. From what I can gather, coins with noticeable distracting marks fall into PR65 or below, whereas the PR66 and higher coins seldom seem to show noticeable distractions in the form of hits or lines. Originality of surfaces would seem to be a major factor in the desirability of these coins too, with coins bearing non-stripped surfaces being far more attractive than thier stripped counterparts.
Anyways, here's the coin! Feel free to GTG or discuss, the video ends with a shot of the grade on the slab, so there's the reveal there if you're interested. I figured this one was hard enough to where it wouldn't be worth it to do a traditional GTG.
Comments
PR68+
My guess was correct.
A WOW coin, for sure. Great images and video.
Interesting, I don't know how to grade these either, but I also guessed the grade before the reveal, so ???. I too will be interested to hear if Mark or any other graders with experience chime in.
I'm pretty sure I saw one of these "sandblast gold Indians" in person, once ... but I'm almost sure it was a $5. I could be wrong.
This one seems mostly mark free to me, other than some very miniscule ticks I could make out in the video, and the small stains (most noticeably the area from the neck/chin to s2 and under ER on the obverse, although there are others).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
@FlyingAl - Alex, it will be my pleasure to participate. And in doing so, I’ll present my thought process, as I examine the images.
The first thing I noticed was that the color and texture of the surfaces looks to be original for the date. As I’ve posted in some other threads, each year of the 1911-1915 Sandblast issues has its own unique color. And 1911 happens to be my favorite among the group. (Edited to add: Sadly, many of these coins have been messed with and no longer exhibit the original color that each date is, or at least was, known for.)
Next, I looked for any spots, stains, contact marks, hairlines or shiny areas of the surface. I’ve seen quite a few Proofs whose grades appeared to have been negatively impacted by the presence of small shiny patches (which I presume are the result of post-strike contact with another coin or some other object).
After having done the above, my thinking is - and here’s where I might be inserting my foot into my mouth - that the coin looks too nice to grade lower than 66 and has too many very minor spots and/or stains to grade above 67. So my grade guess options have been narrowed to 66, 66+ and 67. I got very close to guessing 66+, but due to the apparent great color and originality, I’m going to go with 67.
However far off I end up being from the assigned grade, I hope that sharing and explaining my assessment helps at least a little bit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Proof 66 but a 67 would not surprise me. A very nice coin regardless.
PR67+
Matte proof? I see no real grade limiting issues on this.
Some call it that and others, Sandblast proof.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
64
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
67 seems reasonable- it is quite attractive.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Why so low? Have you seen examples in the 64 or 65 range that looked as fine as this one?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm in the 67 camp but wouldn't be surprised if it were higher.
Sandblast would be correct.
Matte refers to the sandblasting of the dies (Lincolns and Buffs from 1909-1915).
Sandblast refers to the striking of the coins as Satin Proofs and then individually sandblasting the coins by hand in the medal room post strike.
Coin Photography
It's a beaut !
I'll say 68....
PR68 PR67 PR68 PR68
Sandblast appearances.
Winner! That's a whole lot of Proof 68's!!!!!
Looks to be a 67+ to me. If it is a 68 I wouldn’t be surprised. A VERY beautiful piece my coin brother 😎
62 because I saw one in that grade once
PF66 as I think PCGS is mean to copper spots but I grade it 67
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My thought process with experience in these:
I see the PCGS prongs, which provides a huge hint. PCGS is much more conservative with the sandblast series. With a large portion of the sandblast proofs have been reworked somehow, NGC likes the resurfacing thus providing higher grades than PCGS.
Automatically I am in the 66-68 range. I don't see any distractions to warrant a 66, and a 68 would be a monster coin at PCGS. I'll stick with 67 based on probability. 67 is the "why not" grade, because these are so difficult to analyze with the matte surfaces, a 67 is good enough. For NGC, 68 is good enough for the same appearance. These seem to be graded more with feelings/market grading over technical qualities at the high end.
These are just my opinions for the series. I like the OP coin.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Just because you saw one graded 62 doesn’t mean all of the others are the same grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Looking at the photos of the coin I see numerous very small stains on both sides of the coin. I also may see some very minor marks (which candidly may not even be present on the coin; and are simply my eyes and my mind telling me that some flaws are present when they are not).
For Proof coins the intention of the mint that produces them is to produce coins that are flawless and perfect. Thus even for mass produced Proof coins you have to start at (IMO) at least a PF68 in your mind before you look at the coin.
After you look at the coin you can arrive at your first impression (in the case of the pictured coin I am comfortable with a PF68 starting place).
Upon further reviewing the coin I find that the stains present on the coin are a negative, as would be any marks (if they are actually present). Whether the stains and perceived marks (if present) cause me to drop my grade opinion below a PF68 would depend on how I react to viewing the coin in hand under good lighting for the first time.
If the stains are noticeable viewing the coin in hand (and if marks are present on the coin) I would likely drop my grade opinion below a PF68. Conversely, if the stains are not noticeable, if no marks are present and if the eye appeal of the coin viewed in hand blows me away I would increase my grade opinion above a PF68.
To summarize my above blather, IMO the coin is a PF68 unless an in hand viewing of the coin causes me to opine higher or lower.
Some good conversation going here!
This is graded PR67+ CAC if you didn't watch the video for the grade.
Coin Photography
Isn’t it PR67+ CAC even if people did watch the video for the grade? 😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's kinda like Schrodinger's grade: until you check what the grade is, it's both PR67+ CAC and not PR67+ CAC.
Coin Photography
PR65
You are morphing into Red Rocket more and more each day.
I don't know if that is flattering or cringe worthy.
66
fka renman95, Sep 2005, 7,000 posts