Counting denticles. Has this been done much for die pairs and identification?
Aspie_Rocco
Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
I randomly got inspired and focused on counting denticles on the reverse of flying eagles (and trade dollars in that hilarious thread about trade dollar crackouts).
I was wondering if this has been done much already? Like is this count information published already?
Copperindian’s proof F E set has three different reverse denticle counts so far that I have found. 128, 131, and 136. It is interesting to me that there was so much diversity in counts for older coins.
3
Comments
I think it's always good to focus on another aspect when identifying die pairings. Allan Gifford wrote an extremely thorough book analyzing the die pairings and states of three cent nickels. His book focused on date placement, repunching, coin rotation, clashing, die polishing, etc. Yet there was very little mention or use of die cracks to aid in identification, which are super important in the series when determining die states.
I'm not sure to what extent it has been used for other coins, and I doubt anyone has ever counted them on a three cent nickel, but I like the idea of using a denticle count as another tool in the box to identify the specific dies that were used.
The denticle count is used for capped bust half dimes in the classic Logan-McCloskey book.
I have used it to attribute some low grade half dimes where some of the normal die markers were not visible.
I agree, die cracks are the best die marker for 3CN.
3CN is a relatively modern series with no mint mark, so the primary marker on an undamaged die is only the date position (and sometimes some hub differences).
But the die cracks are plentiful, so they are great for identifying dies, not just die states.
A few years back I looked to see how many die pairs I could identify for 3CN 1866.
I managed to identify 71 die pairs and major die states.
I found at least 2 examples for 42 of these, while 29 were based on a single example.
So I'm sure there are more out there to identify.
Gifford identified 1 Proof obverse; I found a second one.
Gifford identified 16 Business Strike obverse dies. I confirmed 9 of them.
He didn't really look for die pairs. I found several cases where his obverses were paired with 2 reverses.
He seemed mostly interested in RPDs and DDOs, and overlooked the die cracks, which are much easier to spot.
The reverse dies have more cracks, and I came up with a way to encode the crack pattern,
to make it easier to compare a coin with all the different reverses.
It is based on numbering the 12 leaf clusters 1-9 and a-c, plus a finer scale for which outer leaf in the cluster is reached by the crack.
Even with this system, it was difficult to attribute a reverse, mostly because the cracks are sometimes light and difficult to see on a typical ebay photo.
I used to think I was a serious coin collector until I read this thread haha
That's some amazing work @yosclimber . I know it's a higher mintage year, but I never would have guessed so many pairings existed for just that one date. Interesting that you found a second 1866 proof obverse. If I remember correctly, Dannreuther mentions only one obverse in his book along with two reverses. I have an 1866 that I am pretty sure is the obverse proof die, but the reverse shows decent weakness in the denticles. I don't think Gifford mentioned the 1866 proof obverse being reused for business strikes, so I wasn't sure what to make of it.
I think modern imaging of coins has helped with identification. The die cracks on 3CN can be quite dramatic, but with a high resolution image one can pick up on ones that might not be as easily seen. To get back to the original post, I think the same could be said for denticle counting. A quality image can make things easier than counting denticles in hand with a loupe.
Counteed three more 1856 F E today have 128, 131, 136
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I don’t have the patience for that.
I don’t have the patience to read the entire thread much less all the work it represents! That’s amazing Yos, excellent research!
Not for me. Counting those would drive me crazy. What is worse is counting the number of reeds on the edge of a reeded edge coin.
Speaking as an old school variety collector who started out collecting "FIDOs" (Freaks, Irregularities, Defects and Oddities) out of circulation back in the 60's, "die cracks" were sort of the red-headed step-child of the hobby back then. Some people considered them collectibles, even down to little die chips such as the "BIE" Lincoln cents, while other people sniffed at them and only collected things like repunched mint marks and doubled dies. In their minds, whatever it was, it had to be on the die when the die was new to be significant.
In my book on the die varieties of the 1922 Lincoln cents due out this Winter I do have a section on die cracks because there were people collecting them by die cracks back in the 1930's, and one of the more popular obverse dies does come paired with a distinctively cracked reverse die. Curiously enough, I have found that cracked reverse die paired with a previously unlisted different obverse die. So, in my mind, die cracks can be significant.
TD