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Is this trade dollar real?
PTVETTER
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Thank you In advance
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
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I say yes. Chops are cool.
bob
Nice chops!
It looks right to me.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
looks good.
Looks real to me.
I like 👍
Real no doubt
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
The 75 S I think is the most widely counterfeited Trade $. The pic is good, but I'd check the weight and metal content. Had a fake 1875 CC I got in Vietnam (knew it was fake, albeit a good one). The give away was the metal content wasn't right. It fooled a number of dealers.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The chops are not right except for the large one above the eagle's head.
Hard to be 100% definitive on the coin with those pictures but I don't see anything that stands out right away.
Nevertheless, because of the dubious chops, I wouldn't be comfortable giving it the all clear without an in hand investigation.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
The weight is correct and will check with an analyzer tomorrow
Will it straight grade with that extremely dark toning?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Bold statement for a raw trade dollar. Even if it’s real I wouldn’t buy that unless it was priced like a counterfeit. Then it would still be priced too high.
That is really harsh. JMHO!
I remember a time when chop marked trade dollars sold for more then the non-chop marked coins,
until someone took advantage of this and put fake chop marks on unmarked coins.
I don't know about the chops. I am safe in leaving that to the experts (above).
I am confident the host coin is genuine.
peacockcoins
At one time Trade Dollars with chops were considered to be damaged and sold for a sharp discount.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Because the trade dollar was demonitized, at times during the great depression they sold for less then face value , sometimes as low as 60-70 cents each.
This was recently shared with me by @MilkmanDan
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I was talking about much later. Initially, the major grading services wouldn't slab chopped TDs because they were considered to be damaged.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That’s when I collected them (about 20 years ago).
The counterfeits have gotten really good. This one has the right markers for a type 2 reverse, if my memory serves.
Would you please elaborate? "Not right" is kind of like. ah, ???. Is it the fact that they are not full characters?
PS Virgil Hancock was probably the most widely known authenticator of his day. He was a driving force in the establishment of ANACS. That quote above from the book reads just like one of his typical yarns published in the Numismatist magazine. Of course there must be fake chops on coins, but I refuse to believe that story without a real source.
Normally my memory fails me however, I have been reading the new Trade dollar book, and the reverse is a Type one (Berry).
I have 2 PCGS Trade Dollars with that exact same look. The dark color won't keep it from grading.
I actually prefer my Trade Dollars to have that look.
genuine xf imo
Here is an example of ngc detailing a trade dollar because of the chopmark, ugh.
The chops are not correct stylistically for the time period.
There is no evident metal movement opposite any of the chops indicating weakly struck chops.
It's difficult to tell from the pictures but the edges of the chops do not appear worn at the same rate of the rest of the coin.
The coin is probably fine...the chops are almost assuredly not.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I don’t see the berry under the eagle’s claw on the right side. If it is there, then it’s not genuine. The serifs AM in “AMERICA” are spaced too far apart to be a genuine type 1.
I’ve read that the type 2 reverse coins were struck late in 1875, and most were exported. My experience over the years bears this out, as type 2s with chops are not unusual. Unchopped examples, however, are scarcer than the type 1s. They’re not nearly as scarce as the 75-CC type 2 reverses, but you’ll probably find at least 5 to 10 unchopped type 1s for every type 2 1875-S.
We've never met but welcome back! I've enjoyed reading many of your old threads/posts.
In this particular case, this is a slam dunk type 1 reverse and is almost assuredly a genuine coin.
Berry:
Arrow:
Neck feathers:
Given the pictures provided, I don't think it's really possible to measure the serifs distance with any measure of accuracy nor am I aware of that being a known indicator of telling the differences between hub types. I would be interested to find out this info but I am currently unaware of any in depth knowledge base of serif measuring across trade dollars. Nor can I conceive of why anyone would even attempt that painful task...where is the upside? Do you have this info?
Here are the two hub type reverses on 1875-Ss:
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
That was the old days, right?
Goodmorning Mr. Lermish. Thanks for your reply. I assure you that I'm not attempting to annoy you and ruin your Sunday.
1. The chops are not correct stylistically for the time period.
These coins have been around for a very long "time period". It would be interesting to know the time period for the first chopped coin and the last for any coin circulating in the Orient.
2. There is no evident metal movement opposite any of the chops indicating weakly struck chops.
Absolutely true, for the reason you mention, and I would expect this to always be the case with weak chops. No one looks at the other side of a chop with a microscope!
3. It's difficult to tell...
Agree, so I will not comment on something we don't know about.
4. The coin is probably fine...the chops are almost assuredly not.
I cannot comment on the coin's authenticity as you are a Trade dollar expert and seem to be very knowledgeable about Chop Marks too. Most here believe the coin is genuine so IMHO, it would be very foolish for a crook to add fake chops to a coin with genuine chops because that should lower its desirability to collectors both by arousing suspicion and damaging the coin further. However, no one claims crooks are smart. Apparently, they use the same dies to strike coins several years apart!
I'll look forward to reading more about Chop marks from you. Aside from the Rose book (I'm looking for one) are there any other books on chops that you have or have read or can recommend? Thanks, have a nice day!
Wow, where have you been all my life. LOL. Your knowledge is amazing.
https://www.amazon.com/Weight-Not-Coyne-Introduction-Chopmarked/dp/B0C79L8GCT
Not including the genuine chop, there are no genuinely chopmarked coins with (at least) 6 distinct and different chops where they all happen to be weakly struck and period incorrect style chops.
Chopped coins used to be more desirable; someone attempting to "improve" the coin is likely the source of the false chops given their patina and age (but not wear). Even today, problematic coins are chopped to obscure or detract from other issues. Some dates are still more desirable chopped. A run of the mill XF 75-P sells for $1000-1500. I would happily pay $10k for a legitimately chopped, problem free XF of the same date.
The mint did this too. I'm unsure what point you are attempting to make.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/periodical/17752
https://www.amazon.com/Weight-Not-Coyne-Introduction-Chopmarked/dp/B0C79L8GCT
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
One other comment on this. The estimated mintage ratio of type 1 vs type 2 for 75-S is approx 8:1. Your estimate for scarcity of the hub types seems well within reason but likely has nothing to do with exports. MOST s-mint trade dollars were exported.
I'll add, you’ll probably find at least 5 to 10 chopped type 1s for every type 2 1875-S. The ratio is very similar whether chopped or not based on my observations.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Thanks! On order.
Does this include the chopped 8 Reales with multiple tiny chops that leave no mark on the opposite side?
It's also cleaned. Perhaps NGC could/would have easily listed that as the reason for details grade.
peacockcoins
there are no genuinely chopmarked US T$ with (at least) 6 distinct and different chops where they all happen to be weakly struck and period incorrect style chops.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
The chops look fine to me. The large 方 chop I’ve seen before a number of times, and my chopped coins have little weird ones on some of them.
Most likely, I’m off on the serifs. I’m probably remembering the distinction between type 1 and 2 reverses on seated dimes. Ah, old age is degrading my brain.
While perusing CoinFacts today I came across this 75-CC with the same 方 on both obv and rev and a smattering of tiny chops. I completely agreed with Lermish’s points on OPs example and would say many if not most of those red flags apply to this one too.
Not questing you but this answer clearly identifies you as one of our nation's top authorities on Chinese Chops and especially with regard to those found on U.S. Trade dollars. When you have the time will you post some hints to authenticating chopped marked coins? I think all of us here would like to learn more. See if what I learned from you so far is valid:
Although many chop marks do not affect the opposite side, it is best if the chop is not weak, and preferably some of it should be deep enough to flatten the opposite side directly under the chop.
The chop must look like something and not be like the tiny ice pick marks or half-moon's seen on Mexican coins.
The chop mark should be worn along its edges. Although it seems to me that a chop would compress metal under its design and displace surface metal up around its edges that would not wear down unless heavily circulated.
I would not define myself as an expert in chopmarks nor in trade dollars. Maybe Advanced in chopmarks and Advanced+ in trade dollars.
Nonetheless, every single one of my posts has my website at the bottom that you can visit if you desire.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
LOL, Perhaps you should let Jay Turner at PCGS know to look out for fake Chops on the coins they certify. So far it seems to me that determining fake chops and natural toning is a crapshoot that needs to be resolved by the many experts who post opinions. Lots of responsibility involved here, I'd hate to be the one passing out final opinions.
Here's another example of a not genuine chopmark that would get past many people. The 73-CC is a very difficult date whether chopped or not; add in the MPD variety and this coin should be very desirable, despite its condition. This coin is currently being auctioned at SB:
When looking at the coin it is graded Fair-Cleaned and is clearly heavily circulated. However, the edges of the chop are sharp and straight. The chop itself is thin and with precises edges, as if the punch was machine made rather than man made.
Considering those warning signs, one must also consider that there is only one chop which is perfectly located in the obverse field. It's a shallow punch with no reciprocal damage on the reverse. The chop, as far as I can tell, is not a Chinese character (this is not necessarily disqualifying by itself). The host coin is cleaned and applying a false chop can (in theory) distract from the poor surface condition.
The only conclusion is that this is an imitation chop, not applied by a Chinese merchant. The imitation chop would likely fool many people. Also, an important reminder that PCGS does not authenticate the chops themselves.
Shame...I've been looking for an example of this variety for quite some time.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I had the exact same thought regarding the overall wear compared to the sharpness of the chop. Spot on with the red flags indicating it’s likely not an original chop.