Dipped Once, Twice, Three Times 'n More and I'm Done With Her

lilolme

Dipped Once, Twice, Three Times 'n More and I'm Done With Her

Yes, the title is a play on the Commodores song Three Times A Lady

The thread in short is about repeated dipping of an ASE multiple times for increasing dip times and photoing after each dip to get a sense of how the dipping is impacting the ASE.

I had previously done a similar experiment but without the photos many years ago to see the impact on a Morgan dollar. I put a thread together on it by taking more recent photos of the final results. But there were no intermediate results and I didn't record or remember how much dipping was done outside of generalizations.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077119/1-1883-o-over-dip/p1

For this test the process was - Dip, neutralize, rinse, pat dry, photo, record ... Repeat.
First I needed to determine a specific photo setup. I adjusted the left and right lights differently to maybe capture different aspects of the dipping impact. This would not be a best coin photo appearance. I used a slab stand to place the ASE into for the photo because it seemed easy to place it back into a very similar position for each photo. The camera and two lights did not move after the initial setup to try and get as much consistency as possible but there were still some minor differences.

So I am not a photographer and use my 20+ year old snap-o'matic. This means the camera will adjust the focus stuff automatically for each photo. So there might be some small differences between photos due to this. I have not checked the recorded numbers.

An obverse and reverse photo was taken after each dip (144 total). The dipping routine was:
10 times for a 1 count each time
10 times for a 2 count each time
10 times for a 3 count each time
10 times for a 5 count each time
10 times for a 5 count each time (this one was done twice as noted above)
10 times for a 10 count each time
10 times for 1 minute each time
2 times for 10 minutes each time

For the above 1, 2, 3, 5 and 10 count they are approximately but a little over 1 second per count and does not include the short time to get the ASE from the dip and into the neutralizing bowl (this won't matter much for longer counts or more).

At the end I did a couple of side by side photos of the dipped ASE and a second un-dipped ASE (same year). Maybe should have done some side by sides at the end of each group but that is hindsight.

No, I am not going to throw all the photos out in this thread. I did semi-crop (rectangle) the initial no dip photos along with the last dipped photo of each group (or at the end of each 10 times above). Also for each of the last two 10 minute dips.

Also I did a test of the dip on an ugly toned Morgan for a 3 count to show the impact on the toning. This was a new container of acidic dip (e-Z-est).

This might give some reference to the impact of dipping. How much can be done for 'light dipping'? When does the dipping become over dipped, not market acceptable - 'altered surface' or whatever the appropriate designation is?

A few thoughts - It is difficult to see the differences in the photos going from one dip set result to another. This even with the un-dipped photos being shown. If the photos were posted separately as a 'here is my ASE' would or where would it be questioned as dipped lightly or then over dipped?

When doing this and looking at the results periodically it was also difficult to see differences between the dipped and the second un-dipped in hand and having them side by side. It was not until the ASE had been dipped what seemed like a lot that I could see a difference more easily. The early dip groups I could not see anything while quickly reviewing.

From what I recall about the previous Morgan dipping experiment, this one took more dipping time to see the luster degradation. Kind of makes (only kind of ) me want to do another Morgan as a test of that quarter century old thought. Also keep in mind that this is dipping only and no cleaning type of alterations have been done which could have, depending on the type of cleaning, more impact to the surface.

The last photos show the fully dipped ASE side by side with a second un-dipped ASE. Clear differences can be seen. Again in hindsight I probably should have done some of these side by side at the end of each group dipping.

I have all the photos of the in-between dips so if anything curious about I might be able to put them together. Different dip groups side by side or just another photo of one of the groups.
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First is a photo of a second ASE (same year) that is used for a side by side (dipped vs not dipped) near the bottom. This photo was taken after completing all the others and editing. So the lighting while very similar is slightly different. Another reference to a not dipped ASE.

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Photo of the No Dip ASE.

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Photo after dipping 10 times for a 1 count each time.

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for a 2 count each time.

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for a 3 count each time.

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for a 5 count each time.

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for a 5 count each time (second one of these for 20 total dips).

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for a 10 count each time.

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Photo with an additional 10 dips for 1 minute each time.

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Photo with an additional 1 dip for 10 minutes.

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Photo with an additional 1 dip for 10 minutes (the second one of these for 20 minutes total).

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Photos after all the dipping was done and side by side with a second un-dipped ASE. The color change between the dipped and un-dipped is real and viewable in hand. I adjusted the left and right lights to be in similar positions overhead relative to the left and right ASE (left side on left and right side on right).
Dipped ASE on the left side of photo (obverse).

Dipped ASE on the left side of photo (reverse).

Dipped ASE on the right side of photo (obverse).

Dipped ASE on the right side of photo (reverse).

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Photo of a Morgan with toning on the reverse (it was ugly toned on obverse) and dipped for a 3 count to show impact of the short dipping on the toning. Note: this was not a pristine Morgan so there is no attempt to show how dipping has impacted the Morgan - just to show how the dip is working and removed the toning quickly.

pcgsregistrycollector

Lustre disappeared.

coastaljerseyguy

The Morgan looks a lot better.

MsMorrisine

i'm surprised the dip cleaned the (our left) left wingtip (morgan)

that's the ase dipped. did you rinse it between each dip?

Coins3675

That transformation on the Morgan was impressive.

lilolme

@MsMorrisine said:
that's the ase dipped. did you rinse it between each dip?

Oh Yes!
As stated in the OP (I know long-windy OP...)
"For this test the process was - Dip, neutralize, rinse, pat dry, photo, record ... Repeat."

MsMorrisine

ok

tl;dr from me obviously

i like reading the picture books

braddick

And after the one millionth dip:

4Redisin

I still see lots of luster on the dipped coin. Is the result of your test that if a coin is dipped properly and neutralized that there is not a detectable difference without having it side by side to a sample coin?

lilolme

@4Redisin said:

I still see lots of luster on the dipped coin. Is the result of your test that if a coin is dipped properly and neutralized that there is not a detectable difference without having it side by side to a sample coin?

That is a side by side photo after all of the dipping. That would be over 30 minutes of dipping on the ASE as the last three were 10 minutes, 10 minutes and 10 x 1 minute each (plus the prior dips noted). I did mention how this ASE, from this one test, appeared to be more resistant to the dipping than the previous Morgan (link in the OP) but again I don't have any old data and did not record how much was done to it back then when I was trying to find out the impact of dipping for my own knowledge. For that photo I was saying the impact is easily noticeable and even a color change in hand (and in the photo) and I don't need a side by side to see it.

However, for the initial dipping I could not see the impact. Then I started to notice it a little and it gradually got worse. This would go along with what I notice years ago from the Morgan dip test. From the OP here are the not dpped and the dipped 10 times for 1 count each time. Then the not dipped and the dipped 30 times for 1, 2 and 3 counts as noted in the OP. These did not have any noticeable impact to my eyes. Maybe a closer examination could reveal something but I was just giving them a quick look and on to the next dip. Remember the toning came off after one 3 count dip. I have many other photos for more comparisons.

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Coinscratch

Looks dipped to me.

4Redisin

Interesting. Your post should be put on the "best" forum.

What I read before was if you dip a coin properly, no one could tell. He did the test in a grading seminar and after several dips, no one could still see any difference. Then, he wrote that sometime between X number of proper dips and when the coin dissolves, you will see a change. I assume that was a joke because what you have done is very helpful yet it is like feeding a lab rat something in large dosages until you get the desired result so you can claim it is dangerous for humans. Yes, over time the same coin will get dipped by several owners but not all at once as this test. Additionally, some may not do it properly. I think a coin's surface should change quicker when dipped if it is allowed to oxidize for a while before each di because oxidation impairs a surface. However, I have some nickel and silver coins in my collection and over the years I have dipped them sever times with no harmful effect.

PS. Years ago, a member on Cointalk left a gem Cameo Proof Roosevelt dime in coin dip to see if he could etch its surface. Unfortunately, I don't recall if any results of the experiment were ever posted.

logger7

Anthony Swiatek had a good electron microscope close up of a dipped silver coin in his newsletter some years ago to show silver loss. You have to be very careful with these; I am not impressed with the grading service conservation jobs these days. If you want something done right do it yourself with a tremendous amount of caution and the right products and the right dilutions.

Coinscratch

Well, the problem with this experiment is the coin has no luster to begin with. Instead, it begins with a flat surface much like a proof coin. Try dipping something with a lot of luster then you’ll see the burn away.

Coinscratch

And more respectfully, SAEs can have a finely sized luster if they’re super nice but with blurry pics it would be impossible to ascertain.

4Redisin

The luster on a SE is not the same as a Morgan dollar. Any luster loss apparent in an image after a few dips is going to be due to the lighting. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. LOL.

lilolme

@4Redisin Yes on the gradual degradation and not initially visible. This is what I found both times (previous was the Morgan with the link in the OP). I also think that some things could impact the dipping results. It is know that if a coin tones heavily or to what is called terminal then it may not 'dip out'. This however is the result of the toning damaging the surface. Cleaning a coin may also have an impact if the cleaning has also impacted the surface, even if not initially seen. That is the dipping is starting with a non-natural or impaired surface. But I would have no clue how many this might be.

@logger7 I recall a similar article but it would have been in a print magazine many years ago. Had some microscope type pictures as you noted and showed how the dipping was 'reshaping' the flow lines or something to that effect.

@Coinscratch Not sure how to answer but this ASE does not have a surface like a proof. That would be something more like a deep DMPL Morgan where tilting the coin under a light it will have very weak luster 'beams'. The ASE if one places it under a single lamp and moves it left to right under the light or if desired tilt the coin left and right, the luster can be seen to rotate on the ASE. The ASE does not have the same luster as a typical Morgan.

As far as" try dipping something with a lot of luster". In the OP I provided a link to a Morgan dollar I did many years ago. I did a very similar thing as far as initially quick dips and then increasing. No initial impact could be seen but after repeated dipping the impact began to show. In the link in the OP, the dipped out Morgan dollar still has some luster but it is significantly diminished and has a 'color' change. This is very similar to the ASE.

As noted the ASE I think took more dipping but I don't have the old results to confirm. To maybe better show the impact I just did a screenshot of the final result comparison (in the OP) of the two ASE. I took the obverse with the ASE on the right side for both (the not dipped second ASE and the final Dipped ASE) and put them side by side. The reduced luster is shown and a color change (like the prior Morgan dollar result). And as previously stated the reduced luster is easily seen in hand.

Coinscratch

I have a dipped a few coins but never had much luck (aside from proof coins) in fact they always come out looking worse.
Here are a couple that I dipped for 10 seconds each +/- a few seconds to reach the rinse. I don't have the before pics readily available but I do have two others from the same set that I didn't dip.

Coinscratch

Granted, Phil made even the dipped coins look good but trust me they look much worse in hand.