@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
@coiner said:
The USM should have just lifted the HHL after 24 hours as in their original plan.
They shot themselves in the foot—the point is to sell the item.
They would have been gone Day 2 at 7:30am est.
USM take note for next time.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
With all due respect, I think it's YOU being difficult. The Big Boys know what they need, and what they have to pay to get it. When supply closely approximates demand, Mint product does nothing in the secondary market.
Not the case here. From the get-go. Dealers were offering premiums before release. They still are.
If it wasn't a supply issue, they'd just wait for the HHL to be lifted, knowing they'll be able to buy what they want, at their bulk discount, at that time. While the flippers are dumping them on eBay at a loss.
If it wasn't a supply issue, there would be no reason for them to pay up at all now, since they have no product to ship to buyers anyway. It IS a supply issue, because they know there will only be 100K, and they know they can sell more than that.
No such thing as "strong hands" when the mintage is 100K. 230 gold FH privys are in strong hands.
That was never going to be the case with these. It's just a question of who is going to be flipping at $200+. Dealers will then flip them to the masses in slabs at $400+.
And then, as you predicted, everyone will move on to the next big thing, and two years from now they will trade wherever they trade. The V75 ASEs suggest that will be higher than $105, but we won't really know until we get there.
That doesn't mean you aren't arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin now. These are hot. Period.
Dealers got 10K, they want far more, and are paying up to get them. Whether they are buying them from you, me, the buyer's club members, whoever.
They know there won't be more than 100K of them. They know what they have, and what they can sell. They also know the deals they made before are falling through, because their sellers are not going to be able to get their hands on them for $105. So the bid remains. What don't you understand about that?
To call that thing a tribute to the U.S. Army is laughable. This is a tribute to the Army.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Well, yeah! If they keep returning thousands to inventory every morning, and don't lift the HHL, there are only so many people who want them who have not already purchased.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
With all due respect, I think it's YOU being difficult. The Big Boys know what they need, and what they have to pay to get it. When supply closely approximates demand, Mint product does nothing in the secondary market.
Not the case here. From the get-go. Dealers were offering premiums before release. They still are.
If it wasn't a supply issue, they'd just wait for the HHL to be lifted, knowing they'll be able to buy what they want, at their bulk discount, at that time. While the flippers are dumping them on eBay at a loss.
If it wasn't a supply issue, there would be no reason for them to pay up at all now, since they have no product to ship to buyers anyway. It IS a supply issue, because they know there will only be 100K, and they know they can sell more than that.
No such thing as "strong hands" when the mintage is 100K. 230 gold FH privys are in strong hands.
That was never going to be the case with these. It's just a question of who is going to be flipping at $200+. Dealers will then flip them to the masses in slabs at $400+.
And then, as you predicted, everyone will move on to the next big thing, and two years from now they will trade wherever they trade. The V75 ASEs suggest that will be higher than $105, but we won't really know until we get there.
That doesn't mean you aren't arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin now. These are hot. Period.
Dealers got 10K, they want far more, and are paying up to get them. Whether they are buying them from you, me, the buyer's club members, whoever.
They know there won't be more than 100K of them. They know what they have, and what they can sell. They also know the deals they made before are falling through, because their sellers are not going to be able to get their hands on them for $105. So the bid remains. What don't you understand about that?
The whole nature of flipping is to take advantage of distribution problems. That's why the long term prices don't hold up 90% of the time. Once the distribution issue is fixed, the premium disappears
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
With all due respect, I think it's YOU being difficult. The Big Boys know what they need, and what they have to pay to get it. When supply closely approximates demand, Mint product does nothing in the secondary market.
Not the case here. From the get-go. Dealers were offering premiums before release. They still are.
If it wasn't a supply issue, they'd just wait for the HHL to be lifted, knowing they'll be able to buy what they want, at their bulk discount, at that time. While the flippers are dumping them on eBay at a loss.
If it wasn't a supply issue, there would be no reason for them to pay up at all now, since they have no product to ship to buyers anyway. It IS a supply issue, because they know there will only be 100K, and they know they can sell more than that.
No such thing as "strong hands" when the mintage is 100K. 230 gold FH privys are in strong hands.
That was never going to be the case with these. It's just a question of who is going to be flipping at $200+. Dealers will then flip them to the masses in slabs at $400+.
And then, as you predicted, everyone will move on to the next big thing, and two years from now they will trade wherever they trade. The V75 ASEs suggest that will be higher than $105, but we won't really know until we get there.
That doesn't mean you aren't arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin now. These are hot. Period.
Dealers got 10K, they want far more, and are paying up to get them. Whether they are buying them from you, me, the buyer's club members, whoever.
They know there won't be more than 100K of them. They know what they have, and what they can sell. They also know the deals they made before are falling through, because their sellers are not going to be able to get their hands on them for $105. So the bid remains. What don't you understand about that?
The whole nature of flipping is to take advantage of distribution problems. That's why the long term prices don't hold up 90% of the time. Once the distribution issue is fixed, the premium disappears
I guess that's one way to look at it. But giving regular people a chance to buy, and not just wholesaling everything out to Big Boys, is not what I'd consider a "distribution issue." Maybe an allocation issue. For them.
And again, when they are minting to demand, there is no issue at all. So the issue is always initial supply not meeting demand. Long term prices don't hold up only when long term demand doesn't hold up. Not when supply chain (distribution) issues are resolved.
Right now, I'm sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense. The 100K are going to be sold and shipped. Prices are not going to immediately drop because the "distribution issue" is going to be resolved. Prices will drop in the future, if and when Big Boys stop marketing them and little boys want to sell into a market no one is promoting.
@HalfDime said:
The US Mint has hurt a lot of people who locked into this coin at the top on Ebay prices. Many assumed there would be no more coins coming into the market so they bought at the top, and now the mint releases the extra 25k coins at HHL of 1, which undercuts all those that bought recently listed preorders. I know many can say that is the chance they took in buying, but the mint should not have done this without telling the coin news websites what was happening to prevent people from being burned like this. The next two releases may be impacted by this. It was obvious the mint had a flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders that broke the HHL of 1, and the preorders should have come back up every morning like they did in past releases. By holding them until one huge dump that created an early scarcity of coins that burned many people.
There was no "flaw in the ordering software that allowed multiple orders" to go through.. Try purchasing another with "some" of your same information and the order will not be allowed to go through, period. I will not say which information is key.
Yes, I have multiple orders in and absolutely no worries of cancellation. Ya just have to know how to do it.
Folks like jmlanzaf, jwitten, RichR, and others not coming to mind right now know how to do it.
Others like NJCoin, coiner, and Halfdime have no idea despite their supposed knowledge and theories on the subject.
There was a flaw in the release day as multiple people in this thread managed to place orders as guests using identical information.
So are those orders getting canceled?
They probably were initially. There was a drop of 11k in the 3 days after release. The subsequent coins could have arisen from multiple sources (despite what not NY says). They find the HHL violations by running a script not by hand-checking. So it isn't really clear where the other 25k came from. Some are probably HHL violations, some are probably bad CCs, some are probably cancellations. Who knows?
Bottom line is that they haven't been able to sell 90k coins even with all the flippers.
No. The bottom line is they aren't selling them, not because they can't, because they keep canceling orders that violated the HHL, and they still haven't lifted the HHL.
This is the very first time they so aggressively went after the violators. In hindsight, the signal that they were going to do this was their failure to lift the HHL after the fist 24 hours. I don't think they ever did that before on anything with such a high mintage.
They'll sell out in an instant if they ever lift the HHL. Will almost certainly sell out at some point even if they don't. Get back to us when the eBay price gets close to $105 if they are still available on the Mint's website. At that point, you'll be right.
Until then, not so much. You're a dealer -- why is there a bid at $200 if the Mint can't sell 90K at $105?
Because the people who need supply can't get it... yet. Duh. They may well be marketing to military types not coin types.
It will sell out despite the tepid sales, but it is not behaving like a hot issue.
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
With all due respect, I think it's YOU being difficult. The Big Boys know what they need, and what they have to pay to get it. When supply closely approximates demand, Mint product does nothing in the secondary market.
Not the case here. From the get-go. Dealers were offering premiums before release. They still are.
If it wasn't a supply issue, they'd just wait for the HHL to be lifted, knowing they'll be able to buy what they want, at their bulk discount, at that time. While the flippers are dumping them on eBay at a loss.
If it wasn't a supply issue, there would be no reason for them to pay up at all now, since they have no product to ship to buyers anyway. It IS a supply issue, because they know there will only be 100K, and they know they can sell more than that.
No such thing as "strong hands" when the mintage is 100K. 230 gold FH privys are in strong hands.
That was never going to be the case with these. It's just a question of who is going to be flipping at $200+. Dealers will then flip them to the masses in slabs at $400+.
And then, as you predicted, everyone will move on to the next big thing, and two years from now they will trade wherever they trade. The V75 ASEs suggest that will be higher than $105, but we won't really know until we get there.
That doesn't mean you aren't arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin now. These are hot. Period.
Dealers got 10K, they want far more, and are paying up to get them. Whether they are buying them from you, me, the buyer's club members, whoever.
They know there won't be more than 100K of them. They know what they have, and what they can sell. They also know the deals they made before are falling through, because their sellers are not going to be able to get their hands on them for $105. So the bid remains. What don't you understand about that?
The whole nature of flipping is to take advantage of distribution problems. That's why the long term prices don't hold up 90% of the time. Once the distribution issue is fixed, the premium disappears
I guess that's one way to look at it. But giving regular people a chance to buy, and not just wholesaling everything out to Big Boys, is not what I'd consider a "distribution issue." Maybe an allocation issue. For them.
And again, when they are minting to demand, there is no issue at all. So the issue is always initial supply not meeting demand. Long term prices don't hold up only when long term demand doesn't hold up. Not when supply chain (distribution) issues are resolved.
Right now, I'm sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense. The 100K are going to be sold and shipped. Prices are not going to immediately drop because the "distribution issue" is going to be resolved. Prices will drop in the future, if and when Big Boys stop marketing them and little boys want to sell into a market no one is promoting.
@pmh1nic said:
To call that thing a tribute to the U.S. Army is laughable. This is a tribute to the Army.
Yes, because nothing says US Army like a soldier in dreadlocks.
...or is that supposed to represent a female soldier??
I don’t care if it’s a soldier with dreadlocks or a female. My only concern is if the took the oath to support and defend the Constitution and obey the orders of the President.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@coiner said:
The USM should have just lifted the HHL after 24 hours as in their original plan.
They shot themselves in the foot—the point is to sell the item.
They would have been gone Day 2 at 7:30am est.
USM take note for next time.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
NJ Coin just admit it and don’t play devils advocate all the time….the USM blew it big time.
They have a policy; they did not follow it.
HHL of 1 for first 24 hours; then it was to be lifted.
If they would have done it—all of the coins would be gone…sold.
Ultimately the USM Numismatic Program is a FOR PROFIT program….they are not in this to lose money. They would like to see a broad distribution of product (as they have stated for many years) but they are in it to sell the product-period.
This sale was an absolute MESS from the start. The cost of managing all of the sale cancellations, refunds, taking additional orders is far in excess of having the remainder of the items being blown out at 7:30am or Noon on Day 2 to a smaller group of people that have much stronger hands.
Jeez what a lot of fuss over a silver coin. All this chatter about what the coin represents or who is gaming the system is ridiculous. If you wanted one you have had plenty of time to get one. Enough with the arguments, the mint doesn’t owe you a side job as a coin dealer. Hope you all had a good 4th and sleep like a baby tonight.
@coiner said:
The USM should have just lifted the HHL after 24 hours as in their original plan.
They shot themselves in the foot—the point is to sell the item.
They would have been gone Day 2 at 7:30am est.
USM take note for next time.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
NJ Coin just admit it and don’t play devils advocate all the time….the USM blew it big time.
They have a policy; they did not follow it.
HHL of 1 for first 24 hours; then it was to be lifted.
If they would have done it—all of the coins would be gone…sold.
Ultimately the USM Numismatic Program is a FOR PROFIT program….they are not in this to lose money. They would like to see a broad distribution of product (as they have stated for many years) but they are in it to sell the product-period.
I'm not admitting anything. I actually gave you credit for correctly calling all the number of ineligible orders, far higher than I ever would have imagined, and a number @jmlanzaf is still denying, so you really should give me a break here.
The Mint didn't "blow" anything. They didn't lift the HHL because they didn't want the people whose orders they were canceling just coming back and scarfing up the coins.
They don't care that that the coins aren't "gone...sold" yet, because they know they will be whenever they want them to be. You're itching because you're frustrated that you can't go in and grab 99 to flip for an immediate $10K profit. They don't care, even though you are not the target here.
You are, however, a victim. Given that they haven't lifted the HHL yet, and the coins do continue to both sell and be returned to inventory since the gamers refuse to read the memo, I'm not sure the HHL will ever be lifted.
Which doesn't mean anything was "blown," or that the full 100K won't sell. They could just turn around and let a bulk buyer have them, if just selling them is a concern. I just don't think they are going to allow the people whose orders are being repeatedly canceled to ever get their hands on them. If so, that will evidently entail keeping the HHL until they are actually, legitimately, sold out.
@Orlena said:
Jeez what a lot of fuss over a silver coin. All this chatter about what the coin represents or who is gaming the system is ridiculous. If you wanted one you have had plenty of time to get one. Enough with the arguments, the mint doesn’t owe you a side job as a coin dealer. Hope you all had a good 4th and sleep like a baby tonight.
What's ridiculous is someone scolding posters on a forum for posting their thoughts when you could just ignore us. We slept like a baby and you posted like one. 👿
@coiner said:
The USM should have just lifted the HHL after 24 hours as in their original plan.
They shot themselves in the foot—the point is to sell the item.
They would have been gone Day 2 at 7:30am est.
USM take note for next time.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
NJ Coin just admit it and don’t play devils advocate all the time….the USM blew it big time.
They have a policy; they did not follow it.
HHL of 1 for first 24 hours; then it was to be lifted.
If they would have done it—all of the coins would be gone…sold.
Ultimately the USM Numismatic Program is a FOR PROFIT program….they are not in this to lose money. They would like to see a broad distribution of product (as they have stated for many years) but they are in it to sell the product-period.
I'm not admitting anything. I actually gave you credit for correctly calling all the number of ineligible orders, far higher than I ever would have imagined, and a number @jmlanzaf is still denying, so you really should give me a break here.
The Mint didn't "blow" anything. They didn't lift the HHL because they didn't want the people whose orders they were canceling just coming back and scarfing up the coins.
They don't care that that the coins aren't "gone...sold" yet, because they know they will be whenever they want them to be. You're itching because you're frustrated that you can't go in and grab 99 to flip for an immediate $10K profit. They don't care, even though you are not the target here.
You are, however, a victim. Given that they haven't lifted the HHL yet, and the coins do continue to both sell and be returned to inventory since the gamers refuse to read the memo, I'm not sure the HHL will ever be lifted.
Which doesn't mean anything was "blown," or that the full 100K won't sell. They could just turn around and let a bulk buyer have them, if just selling them is a concern. I just don't think they are going to allow the people whose orders are being repeatedly canceled to ever get their hands on them. If so, that will evidently entail keeping the HHL until they are actually, legitimately, sold out.
Lmao. You're the one who keeps mentioning it, not me.
And, again, you are inventing things. Who at the Mint told you that they are trying to preserve the cancelation list?
The USM is selling numismatic offerings for a PROFIT.
Ultimately and without doubt the objective is to sell all the items, minimize their cost and make a decent PROFIT.
They like a wide distribution of product across many customers but this is getting out of hand and deviating from their ultimate mission—PROFIT period.
Now they are dealing with the cancellations, HHL 1 evaders, etc etc etc.
They could have just put the rule in place and followed the rule.
After 24hrs release the remaining inventory with no HHL. Or if they feel like trying harder—up the HHL on day 2 to 5 pieces.
This is why they blew it period.
They should be moving on to the next offering.
Unfortunately we are dealing with the “sneaker” buyers who are in this game now.
I remember standing in line outside the Phila mint for the gold Kennedy release. The individuals in front of me didn’t even know what they were buying and how much it cost. They were hired to stand on line.
@coiner said:
The USM is selling numismatic offerings for a PROFIT.
Ultimately and without doubt the objective is to sell all the items, minimize their cost and make a decent PROFIT.
They like a wide distribution of product across many customers but this is getting out of hand and deviating from their ultimate mission—PROFIT period.
Now they are dealing with the cancellations, HHL 1 evaders, etc etc etc.
They could have just put the rule in place and followed the rule.
After 24hrs release the remaining inventory with no HHL. Or if they feel like trying harder—up the HHL on day 2 to 5 pieces.
This is why they blew it period.
They should be moving on to the next offering.
To be fair, most of the Mint's actions are programmed and require very little effort. They have probably put less time into all of the post release activities than NJ puts into a single post.
@coiner said:
The USM should have just lifted the HHL after 24 hours as in their original plan.
They shot themselves in the foot—the point is to sell the item.
They would have been gone Day 2 at 7:30am est.
USM take note for next time.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
NJ Coin just admit it and don’t play devils advocate all the time….the USM blew it big time.
They have a policy; they did not follow it.
HHL of 1 for first 24 hours; then it was to be lifted.
If they would have done it—all of the coins would be gone…sold.
Ultimately the USM Numismatic Program is a FOR PROFIT program….they are not in this to lose money. They would like to see a broad distribution of product (as they have stated for many years) but they are in it to sell the product-period.
I'm not admitting anything. I actually gave you credit for correctly calling all the number of ineligible orders, far higher than I ever would have imagined, and a number @jmlanzaf is still denying, so you really should give me a break here.
The Mint didn't "blow" anything. They didn't lift the HHL because they didn't want the people whose orders they were canceling just coming back and scarfing up the coins.
They don't care that that the coins aren't "gone...sold" yet, because they know they will be whenever they want them to be. You're itching because you're frustrated that you can't go in and grab 99 to flip for an immediate $10K profit. They don't care, even though you are not the target here.
You are, however, a victim. Given that they haven't lifted the HHL yet, and the coins do continue to both sell and be returned to inventory since the gamers refuse to read the memo, I'm not sure the HHL will ever be lifted.
Which doesn't mean anything was "blown," or that the full 100K won't sell. They could just turn around and let a bulk buyer have them, if just selling them is a concern. I just don't think they are going to allow the people whose orders are being repeatedly canceled to ever get their hands on them. If so, that will evidently entail keeping the HHL until they are actually, legitimately, sold out.
Lmao. You're the one who keeps mentioning it, not me.
And, again, you are inventing things. Who at the Mint told you that they are trying to preserve the cancelation list?
No one at the Mint told me anything. @coiner's posts tell me all I need to know.
If the Mint wanted to sell them and move on as much as @coiner wants them to, the sneaker buyers would not have been purged, or they just would have released the 40K coins at 7:30 some morning, after the HHL was lifted, and let @coiner, you, me and the rest of us have at them. Or they would lift the HHL and push them out the backdoor to some dealers.
So, whatever they are doing, it's not would-be flippers canceling orders on their own because they are still available, when a $200+ bid is also still available. @Tomthemailcarrier already solved that mystery for you. And the Mint does seem committed to a wide distribution, rather than letting the scammers get the last word. Even if that means @coiner is annoyed and denied an easy score.
If I am wrong, since you are so much smarter than me, seeing around every corner and considering every possibility, no matter how remote and unlikely, why don't you tell me why the Mint is leaving a product on sale, with thousands of unsold units for days on end, without lifting a HHL of 1?
Yeah this is interesting how this release went. Remains to be seen how the privy collector base increases mintages or values down the road. They will determine long term price stability.
Hey listen we no longer live in a coin-operated economy, so let us have these current issues to obsess about.
Comments
How long before they’re worth less than melt ? ( sarcasm emoji here)
Again, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a "hot issue." People need supply and can't get it, so are willing to pay a premium.
That's a "hot issue" in my book. Notwithstanding Mint selling distortions caused by them apparently wanting to direct sales away from buying clubs and towards the armies of individuals the Big Boys must be employing.
If it wasn't "hot," no one would be unable to secure supply at or below issue price. The Mint isn't "marketing" to anyone. If they wanted to set aside a quantity to sell through the military, they would have just done that.
All they did was nuke the buying clubs and the wiseguys who were pigs, and now they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with them rather than just lifting the HHL and calling it a day. Because, as with every other issue, "hot" or otherwise, regular retail has had plenty of opportunity by now to get their one per household, so there is no reason to keep the HHL in place.
Other than to, as I suggested in an earlier post, spite the people who were gaming it before by never letting them get their hands on any from the Mint at issue price. Which means never lifting the HHL and never letting any of their orders ship, no matter how long it takes to sell out.
They didn't "shoot" anything, and there is no fear they won't sell out. Not as long as there is a $200 bid out there. They could sell them all, right now, to any one of several dozen dealers chomping at the bit to get them at anything close to $105.
So there is no "note to take for next time." They are deliberately keeping these out of certain people's hands by not lifting the HHL and repeatedly canceling their orders and returning the stock to inventory.
They were gone on Day 1 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. They could have left it at that if all they cared about was moving them.
Is This Real?
Probably> @NJCoin said:
The inability to get them isn't a supply problem, it's a distribution problem because of the HHL.
Yes, I am seeing the same, but it now shows many more in inventory.
If you say so. Looks like a supply problem to me, since they want supply and have to pay up to get it.
That's just you being difficult. They would have bought them all from the Mint at $105 if they had been allowed and that may have been sufficient. That's a distribution problem because the HHL forced them to pay people to flip them. It remains to be seen if there is a supply problem because we dont yet know if the supply is in strong hands or flipper hands.
With all due respect, I think it's YOU being difficult. The Big Boys know what they need, and what they have to pay to get it. When supply closely approximates demand, Mint product does nothing in the secondary market.
Not the case here. From the get-go. Dealers were offering premiums before release. They still are.
If it wasn't a supply issue, they'd just wait for the HHL to be lifted, knowing they'll be able to buy what they want, at their bulk discount, at that time. While the flippers are dumping them on eBay at a loss.
If it wasn't a supply issue, there would be no reason for them to pay up at all now, since they have no product to ship to buyers anyway. It IS a supply issue, because they know there will only be 100K, and they know they can sell more than that.
No such thing as "strong hands" when the mintage is 100K. 230 gold FH privys are in strong hands.
That was never going to be the case with these. It's just a question of who is going to be flipping at $200+. Dealers will then flip them to the masses in slabs at $400+.
And then, as you predicted, everyone will move on to the next big thing, and two years from now they will trade wherever they trade. The V75 ASEs suggest that will be higher than $105, but we won't really know until we get there.
That doesn't mean you aren't arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin now. These are hot. Period.
Dealers got 10K, they want far more, and are paying up to get them. Whether they are buying them from you, me, the buyer's club members, whoever.
They know there won't be more than 100K of them. They know what they have, and what they can sell. They also know the deals they made before are falling through, because their sellers are not going to be able to get their hands on them for $105. So the bid remains. What don't you understand about that?
To call that thing a tribute to the U.S. Army is laughable. This is a tribute to the Army.
STILL?
Well, yeah! If they keep returning thousands to inventory every morning, and don't lift the HHL, there are only so many people who want them who have not already purchased.
Yes, because nothing says US Army like a soldier in dreadlocks.
...or is that supposed to represent a female soldier??
BST references available on request
Political correctness ruins everything it touches and deserves the ridicule it gets.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
The whole nature of flipping is to take advantage of distribution problems. That's why the long term prices don't hold up 90% of the time. Once the distribution issue is fixed, the premium disappears
female soldier
I guess that's one way to look at it. But giving regular people a chance to buy, and not just wholesaling everything out to Big Boys, is not what I'd consider a "distribution issue." Maybe an allocation issue. For them.
And again, when they are minting to demand, there is no issue at all. So the issue is always initial supply not meeting demand. Long term prices don't hold up only when long term demand doesn't hold up. Not when supply chain (distribution) issues are resolved.
Right now, I'm sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense. The 100K are going to be sold and shipped. Prices are not going to immediately drop because the "distribution issue" is going to be resolved. Prices will drop in the future, if and when Big Boys stop marketing them and little boys want to sell into a market no one is promoting.
Closeup look..............
need to find the ccac notes on this
looks female to me but could be male
No need to be unduly binary.
Allocation... distribution.. potatoe...potatoh
I don’t care if it’s a soldier with dreadlocks or a female. My only concern is if the took the oath to support and defend the Constitution and obey the orders of the President.
Looks like the ship date has been moved up?
Yes Sir! July 8th
NJ Coin just admit it and don’t play devils advocate all the time….the USM blew it big time.
They have a policy; they did not follow it.
HHL of 1 for first 24 hours; then it was to be lifted.
If they would have done it—all of the coins would be gone…sold.
Ultimately the USM Numismatic Program is a FOR PROFIT program….they are not in this to lose money. They would like to see a broad distribution of product (as they have stated for many years) but they are in it to sell the product-period.
This sale was an absolute MESS from the start. The cost of managing all of the sale cancellations, refunds, taking additional orders is far in excess of having the remainder of the items being blown out at 7:30am or Noon on Day 2 to a smaller group of people that have much stronger hands.
"Defeat is a state of mind; no one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality."
"Sometimes, recognizing when you have lost is more important than winning. It allows you to learn from your mistakes and move forward."
BST references available on request
Jeez what a lot of fuss over a silver coin. All this chatter about what the coin represents or who is gaming the system is ridiculous. If you wanted one you have had plenty of time to get one. Enough with the arguments, the mint doesn’t owe you a side job as a coin dealer. Hope you all had a good 4th and sleep like a baby tonight.
I'm not admitting anything. I actually gave you credit for correctly calling all the number of ineligible orders, far higher than I ever would have imagined, and a number @jmlanzaf is still denying, so you really should give me a break here.
The Mint didn't "blow" anything. They didn't lift the HHL because they didn't want the people whose orders they were canceling just coming back and scarfing up the coins.
They don't care that that the coins aren't "gone...sold" yet, because they know they will be whenever they want them to be. You're itching because you're frustrated that you can't go in and grab 99 to flip for an immediate $10K profit. They don't care, even though you are not the target here.
You are, however, a victim. Given that they haven't lifted the HHL yet, and the coins do continue to both sell and be returned to inventory since the gamers refuse to read the memo, I'm not sure the HHL will ever be lifted.
Which doesn't mean anything was "blown," or that the full 100K won't sell. They could just turn around and let a bulk buyer have them, if just selling them is a concern. I just don't think they are going to allow the people whose orders are being repeatedly canceled to ever get their hands on them. If so, that will evidently entail keeping the HHL until they are actually, legitimately, sold out.
.the USM blew it big time.
That was the old policy, and now they have a new policy, until they revert back to the old one.
Talk about Beating a Dead Horse.....
Policy or not, it was in the press release.
And it's wholly inaccurate to call it a supply problem if there are still coins available to buy.
http://ProofCollection.Net
is this real?
Yes
What's ridiculous is someone scolding posters on a forum for posting their thoughts when you could just ignore us. We slept like a baby and you posted like one. 👿
What the hell are "good customers" and "bad customers"? Lmfao
Exactly
Lmao. You're the one who keeps mentioning it, not me.
And, again, you are inventing things. Who at the Mint told you that they are trying to preserve the cancelation list?
The USM is selling numismatic offerings for a PROFIT.
Ultimately and without doubt the objective is to sell all the items, minimize their cost and make a decent PROFIT.
They like a wide distribution of product across many customers but this is getting out of hand and deviating from their ultimate mission—PROFIT period.
Now they are dealing with the cancellations, HHL 1 evaders, etc etc etc.
They could have just put the rule in place and followed the rule.
After 24hrs release the remaining inventory with no HHL. Or if they feel like trying harder—up the HHL on day 2 to 5 pieces.
This is why they blew it period.
They should be moving on to the next offering.
Unfortunately we are dealing with the “sneaker” buyers who are in this game now.
I remember standing in line outside the Phila mint for the gold Kennedy release. The individuals in front of me didn’t even know what they were buying and how much it cost. They were hired to stand on line.
To be fair, most of the Mint's actions are programmed and require very little effort. They have probably put less time into all of the post release activities than NJ puts into a single post.
316 coins sold since 9:30pm last night.
They would have sold 317 if they would let me buy another one!🤣😂
Or maybe 3316 coins with 3000 cancelations...
No one at the Mint told me anything. @coiner's posts tell me all I need to know.
If the Mint wanted to sell them and move on as much as @coiner wants them to, the sneaker buyers would not have been purged, or they just would have released the 40K coins at 7:30 some morning, after the HHL was lifted, and let @coiner, you, me and the rest of us have at them. Or they would lift the HHL and push them out the backdoor to some dealers.
So, whatever they are doing, it's not would-be flippers canceling orders on their own because they are still available, when a $200+ bid is also still available. @Tomthemailcarrier already solved that mystery for you. And the Mint does seem committed to a wide distribution, rather than letting the scammers get the last word. Even if that means @coiner is annoyed and denied an easy score.
If I am wrong, since you are so much smarter than me, seeing around every corner and considering every possibility, no matter how remote and unlikely, why don't you tell me why the Mint is leaving a product on sale, with thousands of unsold units for days on end, without lifting a HHL of 1?
Yes. This means they will almost certainly start shipping this week.
I assume they start shipping on Tuesday, simultaneously lifting the HHL on product.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'm not seeing the problem...everyone who wanted 1 (or 2...or 3?) got them.
Vs. a sellout in under 10 minutes back in the day and lots of angry people on this board spitting nails.
Yeah this is interesting how this release went. Remains to be seen how the privy collector base increases mintages or values down the road. They will determine long term price stability.
Hey listen we no longer live in a coin-operated economy, so let us have these current issues to obsess about.