UNC vs AU - returns OK?
zrnumismatics
Posts: 134 ✭✭✭
Hi all,
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before I was curious about this. I will never sell a raw slider as uncirculated. If I think it's borderline, I just list it as borderline with some slight rub on the high points. But if you were to purchase a coin as UNC, and sent it out to PCGS or NGC, should it be the responsibility of the seller to offer recourse to the buyer in this situation?
I have only had this happen once on the buyers side. I bought a coin as MS62. I voiced my concern that it may be a slider with a bit of rub - but the dealer assured me it's a 62. I sent it to PCGS and it came back 58 - dealer honored his word and bought it back at 62 bid.
What do y'all think about the responsibility of sellers when listing raw UNC coins?
Comments
"But if you were to purchase a coin as UNC, and sent it out to PCGS or NGC, should it be the responsibility of the seller to offer recourse to the buyer in this situation?"
Absolutely not, unless the seller warrants that he will do that.
Edited to add:
"What do y'all think about the responsibility of sellers when listing raw UNC coins?"
I think the responsibility of sellers is to act in an ethical manner. That includes not offering grading opinions unless they're qualified to do so and being honest in including those opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The TPG grade of "62"... just what does it actually mean?
I was under the opinion that at some time around 2009, Ebay no longer allowed grades being offered by seller's unless in an approved holder. So I began ensuring the best photo's I was capable of for the buyer to decide and have been doing so ever since. If a coin were to be absolutely magnificent, why bother advertizing it as BU, unc or other non slabbed grade as any decent photo would present it as such.
As to the question of seller being responsible, I feel that would be answered by ebay with a filed complaint and not for us to decide a permanent law. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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Moral of the story - don't buy raw coins unless you are willing to take the risk.
Third party grade of MS62.
His question was in an abstract manner, not literal.
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Personally, as a seller I would 100% offer to buy back at bid for 62 if a coin I described as UNC comes back AU. This is because wear is something that is intrinsically present or absent, wherein the difference between VF35 and XF40 is a matter of opinion. I don't see the point of selling as anything other than a slider if you think it may have a bit of rub.
You need to make your own decision regarding the grade when buying the coin. If you aren’t confident, wait for a graded example from the TPG of your choice.
The ethics of the return policy depend on what the dealer’s stated policy is. The vast majority of dealers are not going to allow returns after the time it takes for you to submit a coin for grading which would likely take you 30 days or more. Many dealers won’t take returns at all if the sale took place in person.
When buying a coin, if you think you might want to return it, it’s probably not the coin for you - be patient and wait for a coin where you have more confidence that it will meet your needs.
Keep in mind that one TPG’s MS62/63 coin is another TPG’s AU58+. And no submitter can guarantee how a TPG will grade a coin on any given submission. Grades are just an opinion at a point in time from a specific person.
I agree, if there is no premise that it will receive anything. But but by calling it UNC, you are saying there is no wear. If you call a polished coin original surfaces - that's grounds for a return right?
That’s not really the case though - there are many coins with wear in MS62 holders. And you could likely get many AU58+ coins into MS holders on the right day at the right TPG.
This topic is covered is covered extensively in the ANA’s intro grading class - you should check it out if you ever get the opportunity - it’s a ton of fun and very enlightening!
But if you think that CACG may call it 58+ and PCGS will let it slide as a 62 or a 64 because there is only slight friction - why list it as UNC?
I'll be at summer seminar
It can be really hard to spot luster breaks sometimes - especially if you aren’t familiar with where to look on a certain series. I have a couple PCGS AU58 coins that I swore were MS63 when I submitted them.
Some dealers are not particularly good at grading or may feel that a particular coin should be market graded as MS62 regardless.
Edited to add that there will likely be dealers in your ANA grading class - there were in mine!
The original post didn't single out sellers on eBay, There are more than a few ungraded coins sold elsewhere, as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I remember when third party grading and slabbing was in its infancy and the vast majority of coins were still raw. Some dealers would buy flashy PCGS or NGC AU58 coins and crack them out and then sell them as Choice BU coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For the most part, if you’re buying raw, you need to pay what you’re comfortable paying. If it’s UNC to you, pay that money. If not, don’t. If you’re looking at a slider, you’ve got to be happy with the price before you buy it.
All my raw sliders are UNC. I’ll never submit them and be convinced otherwise.
If you know you’re looking at a coin in the 58-62 range, you know it’s got some issues and some good points. As long as the seller is acting in good faith (and you know they’re going to be biased towards their own inventory) then there’s no obligation for return unless agreed upon before purchase.
We do guess the grades in here all the time with great pictures and have resident dealers provide a wide range of grades on the same coin. Grading is subjective and no one gets it the same as the TPGs every time.
Let’s say the grade would have returned as MS64. Would you then have returned to the dealer with cash in hand to make him whole from the loss?
Buy the coin if you like it. My two cents.
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
If I was a seller of a raw coin I would provide the best photos of what the coin truly looks like and note my opinion, but never state it is MS unless I broke from its holder and would note the TPG's grade, and whether I agree. I'm an album collector so broke out over 50 MS coins and kept all the slab grades as reference for my albums. As others noted, one TPG's low MS grade is another's AU58, never mind TPG's changing prior grades, so there are no guarantees ever.
Glad to hear seller took back the coin but wouldn't expect that in all cases unless seller guaranteed coin would grade MS and priced as such.
I would never expect an extended return period based on the results of TPG grading except in the case where I had a specific agreement with the seller, especially for grade. Whether I make the purchase online or in person, I've certainly had a chance to review the coin in-hand before sending it off. Let's say I buy a raw coin that is sold as UNC. There are a few possibilities:
1- I agree it's unc. If I get it graded and it's AU, that's on me (or the graders)
2- I think it's AU. It's on me to return the coin or be happy with it at the price I paid.
3- I think it's borderline AU or UNC and express that to the seller. Perhaps we can agree to an extended return period if it grades AU, or I can take the risk of keeping it, or I can return it. That said, if I really want an uncirculated coin, if I'm on the fence, I'm likely to not want to keep the coin based on my assessment of the coin; a TPG calling the coin uncirculated isn't going to make me like it as such if I think it's AU. I will admit there are definitely plenty of graded MS62 coins I don't like because I disagree with the TPG and consider them AU.
Caveat: the comment on extended return periods doesn't apply if the coin comes back as counterfeit, and I might at least bring it up to the dealer if it comes back with some kind of damage/alteration that's hidden (an obvious cleaning would be on me).
Generally speaking, absent a specific agreement, it's "buyer beware".
Now, if the coin is bought on ebay and was blatantly misrepresented, that's different. But raw coins are at best a matter of opinion in regard to grade.
Also, if you expect a seller to take a coin back, are you also going to expect them to reimburse the grading fees?
I've been in this hobby, off and on, for 55 years... since I was a kid. In all that time, never once have I considered going back to the seller if a coin I purchased turned out to be "less" than what I thought it was.
Also, if we're splitting hairs between 58-62 grades, would this same logic hold for F-VF-XF grades... or G to VG to F grades for early copper issues and Colonials? There are huge differences in price for many of these more rare issues just by going one or two grading points higher as well... it's not just limited to AU-UNC grades.
Anyway, I've certainly paid my share of tuition to this hobby, but the more I've stuck to it, the better I've gotten at realizing value, and I've actually recouped some of that "tuition " along the way.
That said... I really like coins graded AU58. Some of these sliders actually look better than their MS60 and 61 counterparts. Especially if there aren't many contact marks..
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Of course not. But if they call it 64 and it comes back 62 - regardless of the price jump, I would also never try to return it either. To me, that's a matter of opinion. Same with XF45 vs VF35. I've given people money if coins come back $1000+ higher than I paid because of a price jump. The difference with this situation is that wear on the hight point and friction are true.
And to answer @JBK - no - I'd eat that as a buyer. That was agreed upon in our specific situation.
The discussion went like this. You are saying this is an MS62 and I see a bit of friction on the high points. Dealer said that he went to ANA grading school and he knows it will come back 62. The price he was offering it at gave me a little bit of room to make money after grading fees at 62. I told him straight up that I will send it out for grading and try to make a little money, but I will lose a lot if it gets 58. He said he will buy it back at greysheet bid 62 if it gets 58.
The dealer is probably thankful you brought the coin back because now he can take the 58 slab and go get a cac gold sticker on it, sell it for triple.
I have a feeling he’ll be sending you a Christmas card this year.
Ebay doesn't allow numerical grades but does allow designations of VG, AU, Unc etc.
Grading is subjective. Just as the distance from full originality. So some may not wish to leave money on the table?
Would you please take the time to post a short summary of what you learned on this topic at the ANA for us?
I dunno, but I’ve paid 63 money on slabbed 58s before that had great eye appeal but would pass if the same coin was in a 62 slab. I also wanted to add some modern coins to my circulated slabbed type sets before and carried some nice gemmy uncirculated coins around in my pocket until they had noticable rub and submitted them for grading and was disappointed when they all came back as 64s and 65s.
Mr_Spud
NNC was allowed for a few more years and a well known ebay seller "centsles" was selling a lot of those. Then ebay changed it's policy.
I don't think there is always a bright line on the differential between 58 and Unc., and selling a coin with that proviso would be foolish for a dealer guaranteeing that PCGS will grade the coin as an Unc. grade. It's impossible to know how they're going to see it as Unc. or even as a "details" coin so to guarantee that is not good business sense.
He was my old boss. He doesn't do CAC stickering or CACG and only send $10,000+ coins out to grading. But the coin had clear in wear on the high points. After working for him over the summer for a few years and seeing that he put numerical grades on every coin he sold - I had some doubt in his grading abilities despite the fact that he went to ANA summer seminar grading school. The purchase was part of a big deal and we kind of just had a friendly bet on that coin.
Many years ago, on two different occasions, I was one of teachers/instructors for the advanced grading class. And, while I’m happy to say that most of the students showed marked improvement by the end of the sessions, they still weren’t what I’d call expert graders.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Grading is subjective - raw coins can be risky. And this risk increases the higher ticket you go.
Your responsibility for returns is to return the item before the eBay deadline.
If your going to play (raw coins) be prepared to pay.
Usually, that means it's a marketable acceptable Unc coin to two particular graders at a given moment in time. I have actually seen one MS 62 coin that I believed was an honest Unc. The coin was all there as an Unc., but didn't have much eye appeal.
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