1837 Capped Bust Half Dollar question regarding GR-2 with Center Dot.

jesbroken

The 1837 CBHDollar GR-2 with Center Dot auctions. I can only find 1 auction in last 5 years. This coin is a cleaned XF details coin but appears AU to me. As it is the only die pair of 25 with the center dot, what would be it's rarity #? I find plenty of other GR#'s sold at auction but only the 1 for a GR-2. Thanks. BTW, terrible true view photo which getting used to. I'm a terrible photographer and mine kicks this ones B***.
Jim

lilolme

@jesbroken said:
The 1837 CBHDollar GR-2 with Center Dot auctions. I can only find 1 auction in last 5 years. This coin is a cleaned XF details coin but appears AU to me. As it is the only die pair of 25 with the center dot, what would be it's rarity #? I find plenty of other GR#'s sold at auction but only the 1 for a GR-2. Thanks. BTW, terrible true view photo which getting used to. I'm a terrible photographer and mine kicks this ones B***.
Jim

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First I don't know anything about this GR-2 (first time seeing it) and don't have any book information on it.

To attempt to answer the OP question, some general information and the GR-2 appears to be an R3. So I get the R3 from Heritage, Stacks and Fortin. Links to sorts (don't know if I captured all the designated GR-2) on Heritage (3 auctions 2025, 2021, 2015) and Stacks (5 auctions 2024 and pre-2017) past auctions where both call it an R3. And similarly so does Fortin website.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search/results.zx?term=GR-2&si=2&dept=1909&archive_state=5327&sold_status=1526~1524&coin_category=2514&us_coin_year=~~1837t1837&sb=1&mode=archive&page=25~1&layout=list

https://archive.stacksbowers.com/?q=c4dd5b34-ee79-44af-a62c-e1be6f86ca52

Coinfacts has 4 of them (one more in more images) and at least one is in the auction links. I didn't see any more or others in the regular 1837 coinfacts images.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1837-50c-gr-2/531048
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QUESTION: What is that circular 'mark' on the reverse and how did it get there?
Is this something obvious that I am missing?
Anyone have the book on this one?

Center dots are typically small raised dots. Bust half fever saying they were used as a center point for a compass or similar to locate where to punch in the outer design elements.

This circular feature is not raised like a center dot (unless my eyes deceive me) and appears somewhat larger than the center dots I have seen on lettered edge halves and appears to have a circular 'groove' around it.
Secondary but - When did they stop doing center dots?

Here is a TV reverse of one and then I enlarged it.
Who is it that I think I remember reading was involved with write ups on the reeded edge half? @TomB ?

seatedlib3991

If truly interested I believe copys of Dick Graham's book on Reeded Edge Halves are still available. You can find contact information at the Liberty Seated Collector Club web site.
You might also be interested to know that past issues of the E-Gobrecht contain a series of articles pertaining to Reeded Edge Halves. The person writing those articles also has a pdf on Reeded Halves but it has been awhile since i got one in my E-mail box. good luck no matter what direction your collecting takes. James

jesbroken

@seatedlib3991 Have not found a decent copy of Dick Graham's A Registry of Die Varieties of Reeded Edge Half Dollars 1836 - 1839. If anyone would have one to sell or know of one for sale, I would appreciate it. I have Reiver's old book, but it's not much help. It says the GR-2 reverse is perfect and not much else. lol
@lilolme Thank you for such an indepth reply. Very much appreciated. The reason I purchased this coin was because of the odd center "dot" which is unlike any other I have seen. As you said, it is different. So an R-3, as it is the only die pair that consists of the odd center mark out of 25-27 die pairs, I thought it would have been harder to find. I have not found another in the last year after puchasing this one. You guys are great for helping us novices.
Jim

seatedlib3991

The person who was sending me PDF documents on Reeded Halves is named Jim Koening.
His e-mail address is bustcoin1@verizon.net
his mail address is Jim Koenings
box 2382
Riverside CA 92516

The last message I got from him was in Feb. 2024.  At that time he was offering updated books on Reeded Edge Halves.  in the past he has mentioned having copies of the original book for sale.  that is all i know.  good Luck.  James

jesbroken

@seatedlib3991 said:
The person who was sending me PDF documents on Reeded Halves is named Jim Koening.
His e-mail address is bustcoin1@verizon.net
his mail address is Jim Koenings
box 2382
Riverside CA 92516

The last message I got from him was in Feb. 2024.  At that time he was offering updated books on Reeded Edge Halves.  in the past he has mentioned having copies of the original book for sale.  that is all i know.  good Luck.  James

James,
I will try to contact this individual, but I was able to get a new copy of the book from a forum member. I will let you know what I find out.
Thank you.
Jim

jesbroken

@lilolme
Should you garner any further information, as to this "center dot" I would appreciate your sharing it with me. I was lucky enough to get a new copy of Dick Graham's book and I'm hoping there may be info there in its regard. Thank you again.
Jim

seatedlib3991

@jesbbroken . Glad to hear it. The person i mentioned was offering updated lists of coins, varieties, populations and a new list of 1839 coins so i hope you find him. james

lilolme

@jesbroken said:
@lilolme
Should you garner any further information, as to this "center dot" I would appreciate your sharing it with me. I was lucky enough to get a new copy of Dick Graham's book and I'm hoping there may be info there in its regard. Thank you again.
Jim

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I did look a little more but didn't find anything definitive about that circle on the shield. One of the HA lots has a brief description but just mentions:

"The 7 in the date shows signs of recutting and there is a depressed circle in the crossbars of the shield on the reverse, identifying the GR-2 variety."

https://coins.ha.com/itm/reeded-edge-half-dollars/1837-50c-gr-2-r3-ms64-ngc-pcgs-531048-/a/1216-4894.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Going with seatedlib3991 and mentioning Koenings I found this article on Internet Archive about the 1837 GR-2. Again it only briefly mentions the reverse circle:

Here is the link to that article and it has much more information on the Die states of the 1837 GR-2 and mentions Graham stating it was an R3 (and probably where HA and Stacks got their auction information).

https://archive.org/details/rehn45jan23/page/n1/mode/2up

Here is a link to a search on Jim Koenings and it has several of the articles he has done.
Similar to seatedlib3991 above, the last one I quickly identified was #62 June 2024.

https://archive.org/search?query=creator:"Jim+Koenings"

It is an interesting 'circle'. In the above enlarged photo the smooth surface of the circle has a very similar texture to the surface between the stripes (below it). This depressed 'circle' would be raised on the die above the stripes and crossbars but surely still below the field surface of the die. But then that apparent circular 'groove' around that circle would appear to go deeper or be raised more on the die - kind of like a thin walled tube?? As I mentioned above - I don't know. Am I missing something?

yosclimber

Maybe it was created by impact damage to a working hub?
Then transferred to one die.
Perhaps they noticed the defect after striking several coins, then retired the die and working hub?

jesbroken

@lilolme
Thank you, I have been reading quite a few of the newletters Koenig wrote and truly appreciate the info. So the GR-2 had 201 to 500 coins struck. Not sure how long that would take, but for all coins to have the same damage/center dot the die had to be the culprit. Truly odd that more has not been found in the center mark's regard. Think I will pm Roger and see if he has ran across any info by chance. He has viewed so many documents from the mint, perhaps?
What a great forum to be able to access so many talented and informative people. It's been a blessing to this old collector.
Jim

lilolme

.> @jesbroken said:

@lilolme
Thank you, I have been reading quite a few of the newletters Koenig wrote and truly appreciate the info. So the GR-2 had 201 to 500 coins struck.
Jim

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The rarity ratings are for estimates of existing coins and can change with time as more data becomes available.
PS - rarity rating scales from one series to another might be the same but some are different (particularly Morgan dollars).

@yosclimber Something like that (hub) would make it easier for me to envision.