Vermont colonial, where's the environmental damage?
logger7
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The dealer who's been in the business for 60 years I got this Colonial from expected a straight grade. What is the issue?
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The pourous, rough texture. Kinda looks like very fine sandblasting. It might have spent some time enjoying the outdoors until someone found it.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
The fields are supposed to be flat and smooth with some nicks, not like someone threw a handful of gravel on them (when pic blown up)
What is that chunk of green in the bow ribbon in the hair?
I believe I’ve seen early copper straight-graded with similar porosity, but would need to see it in hand. Not that I disagree with the ED call, IMO the TPG’s can be too lenient on occasion.
As has already been mentioned, it appears the coin has moderate and uniform porosity throughout to the point that some of the surface might flake off. Although there are plenty of early copper pieces that get straight grades with less than ideal surfaces, I think this one just went too far past their line in the sand for such issues.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Umm all over, it spent quite a bit of time corroding.
The “issue” is substantial corrosion.
Maybe after 60 years in the coin business, your dealer’s eyesight is not what it used to be.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Regardless, I like it, quite a lot of the reverse legend visible for a RR-13.
Looks like it spent quite a while underground. Nice strike though!!
Yep, ground recovery.
Hard to tell from that dark picture of a dark coin, but I suspect that I would have certified it with "Corroded" on the paper certificate.
This is the highest graded of the Coinfacts images of the issue, there are better ones not on the page:
I find the unwarranted projection of a "ground recovery" to be quite presumptuous by people who have zero knowledge of the history of this coin where other circumstances could certainly apply.
There are a few raw ones that blow that away. Off the top of my head one is the Taylor coin sold by Bowers in 1987. Most if not all of the serious colonial collectors I know do not want their stuff slabbed.
It looks like a few members know what a corroded copper looks like although I will agree with you that they have no way of knowing the coin's history. Does it matter? I like the coin.
Yeah, It’s “presumptuous” not to mention that the corrosion could actually have occurred in a damp basement, a sewer pipe, a pigsty, a Coinstar machine, or the Johnstown flood.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
CAC will probably sticker it.
This is exactly why a person should buy the coin and not the holder.
You did ask for opinions based upon the pictures. We gave them.
......or a freshly painted safe.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Reasonable requests for grade reasons should not leave members here open to people insisting they know what the history of the coin is; that's rude and disrespectful, insisting a coin was dug up if it was graded as having environmental damage. And I don't appreciate the doubling down with ugly characterizations.
No one meant to hurt the coin’s feelings - everybody really dug it!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I see what you did there!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Of the relatively available Vermont coppers, the 1786 Baby Head’s, head lefts, 1787 Britannia, 1788 Ryder-27 are notorious for planchet imperfections that are due to poor quality copper planchets. TPG’s are all over the map when it comes to grading them accurately. I can’t blame them in this case. I buy them if I like the look. I’ve seen straight graded coins that I wouldn’t touch and details coins that should be straight graded. Doesn’t matter to me as I break them out. As made issues on the coins I listed are ok, to a degree. The original coin in this post is clearly a coin in which the porosity occurred post minting. That said, it is a. historical coin struck at the Machin’s Mills mint using a Britannia reverse.
Bottom line is that we see slabbed modern coins get green and gold beaned, “upgraded” or “downgraded” a grade or two after being broken out, etc. If this occurs with Morgan’s or whatever, how can one trust the listed grade of a state colonial? Buy the coin, not the holder.
No they won't.
There are types of sources of environmental damage with copper coins, where the coin was kept, the humidity, etc.; obviously seaside locations are the worst after direct contact with problem substances : https://fractory.com/copper-corrosion/#:~:text=Exposure to environmental conditions that,are in contact with copper.
Here is the piece that is in my collection.
This piece is PCGS graded EF-45, and it came from the Eric P, Newman collection.
This coin is graded by the sharpness of the obverse. The reverse, which was originally made for a counterfeit coin, was intentionally made to look weak to simulate wear. The theory was that people would accept it if it appeared that others had already taken it. This is product of the famous Machin's Mills mint.
Looking at your coin in the OP, I think that they may have been a bit harst when they labeled it "environmentally damaged." These coins were not made perfectly from the beginning. Going by the OP True View photo, that is my opinion. Perhaps if I were to see it in person, I would have a different take on it.
Beautiful example, and really nice early state, @BillJones
Terrific Ryder-13!! 🏆
Probably a short term grounder in a fairly neutral type of soil. Hard to judge these coins by pictures as to eye appeal. My Ryder 13 has nice circulation wear but was never a grounder. Eye appeal and color are really what determines how “good” a Vermont is. (Sorry about the dust spots :-)
Wow!
My example:
Your coin is not discolored, and the pitting is more than likely due to flaws in its planchet as it does not look as if it were conserved. IMO, the OP's coin is corroded. The image is all that is needed to make that determination. I'll bet "Environmental Damage" along with "Sea Water Effect" was introduced into the hobby sometime after "Detail Grading" by TPGS's became universal in order to make selling corroded coins easier.