Looking For the PCGS MS Morgan Dollar That Went From 65CAC to 67CAC to 68
FlyingAl
Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know the coin caused some buzz years ago, but I can't find it despite searching. Does anyone have a picture of that coin? If memory serves it was an Aurora Borealis coin at the end.
Coin Photographer.
0
Comments
Last picture in the first post
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/interesting-finds-aka-where-the-67s-are-from.342300/
Awesome, thanks!
Pics for anyone interested.
Coin Photographer.
WOW!!
Nice coin, but imo, this shouldn't happen.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Maybe my eyesight is not what it used to be.
None of those pictures would make me want to own that coin.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
It looks like at least a handful of professional graders thought it was rather under-graded in the first photo and at least one thought it was over-graded in the last photo. So..... the consensus seems to be that it's a nice 67.
It happens, especially when color and eye appeal take the wheel.
Hilarious - Didn’t like it even as a 65 plus. It’s since been flipped at 68 money? Kudos for the seller but dunce cap for the buyer.
What do you grade it?
Successful BST transactions- Bfjohnson, Collectorcoins, 1peter223, Shrub68, Byers, Greencopper, Coinlieutenant
Coin Photographer.
Based on the pictures provided, the coin looked silly as only a 65+.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ouch! Is this a record in upgrading?
Here is the TrueView
Man, there are twenty five 68+ and two 69 gor this date/mm.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Not silly enough to get a gold sticker though...
Duplicate post deleted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If I knew nothing of the coin’s history and it was in a guess-the-grade thread…I’d probably say that it looked like a 66+ that would get a grade bump to 67 or 67+ for the color.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@FlyingAl, I’m guessing that was in response to the below-copied post from @Cougar1978. If so, next time please quote his post so that he gets the “credit” he deserves.😉
Cougar1978 Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭✭✭ January 31, 2025 6:30PM edited January 31, 2025 6:38PM
Hilarious - Didn’t like it even as a 65 plus. It’s since been flipped at 68 money? Kudos for the seller but dunce cap for the buyer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would have given it the gold as a 65+ and technically CAC should have as well since it got a green at two points higher (which was long thought to be an unofficial standard for gold-stickering at 1-2 points higher).
I would have also guessed the coin to be a 66+ or 67 but some grader didn't agree (and it does surprise me that there is 2.5 points of variance for a coin that should not be relatively hard to grade for a TPG).
And that's just the past 20 years, do we know if the coin was in any prior slabs from the 80s or 90s?
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Those 3 gradings (65+/67+/68) happened in a fairly short time-about 2-3 years max. I’d be more forgiving if it was a 65 rattler that went to a 67+/68 new holder.
How Cougar sees himself on the PCGS forum:
How everyone else sees him:
65+ is a little low. I didn't like the coin either untill I saw the large true view.
Ahh you're right, at first I thought the first one was an old blue holder but now I see it's a modern blue without gold shield. Agreed about the alternate rattler scenario.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Don’t see 8 but 6+ CAC no issues.
I have a toned 81S in 65+ and it doesn't look anywhere near as good as that piece.
I doubt many here would dispute the fact that the original grade was very tight at 65+, and I would have expected a gold sticker in that holder. The fact that the coin spanned 4 whole grade levels (using the “inner diameter” of 2.5 is generously lenient) at PCGS, and 3 at CAC, within a relatively short time frame, is unsettling. 81-S is a generously graded date and I have no issue with the 67 on this one.
Yet another example that shows that “standards”, in light of being written or verbal, are far from absolute… and the subjectivity of color bumps has yet to be defined. If we want to split hairs, there are 6 different grade and sticker combos within the range, 5 with stickers. Which one is the correct grade? 😉
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Not making a comment on the grade of this particular coin, but the concept of color bumps (which PCGS is far more guilty of than the other tpgs) is incredibly inane. The thought process is: X coin is a technical 66, but has wild color and is worth far more than a 66 in the market, so let’s call it a more appropriate 67. But the problem is the technical grade isn’t noted, so no buyer or seller will necessarily look at that coin in a 67 holder and think “this is a technical 66 that has been bumped up due to the value associated with the color, so I’ll buy/sell it for more or less a 67 price.” No, they will look at it and think “this is a 67 with wild color, so I’ll buy/sell it for a 68 price (or whatever amount over a typical 67 price.” So in fact the market value increase caused by the color bump is twofold. It should never have been adopted as a practice.
It also just increases grading volatility as it’s a more subjective factor in grade than a lot of other factors. It’s not an accident that many of the famous big upgrades in the 65 to 68+ range are toned coins.
Makes sense as color is not one of the major components of grading like luster, contact marks and strike. Color is an eye appeal factor as blast white fresh roll luster look is an eye appeal factor as well for those collectors who favor one or the other
The Trueview certainly shows what the snapshots did not:
a dramatic color palette, beautifully rendered on the obverse of a well-struck coin with very few flaws.
Current pops for MS65+ 1881-s Morgans show 20,128 coins in higher grades.
Today, as an MS68, only 28 coins rank higher.
She may be a tarnished lady, but look what she’s accomplished!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
More evidence of grade-flation at CAC, this is absurd.
This really is nothing more than Exhibit A which illustrates the subjective nature of grading. Some coins have a look that may not always resonate with TPG resulting in a grade opinion not contemplated… the perception of a coin can change over time as does the grade opinion.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I enlarged the Trueview for the toned coin and the marks on the cheek/face are not acceptable for a 68 coin. Here is a photo of my PCGS 68 CAC coin that I bought from Larry Shapiro a few years ago. He had a dozen or more 68 CAC coins to pick from and I liked this one the best.
@Coinbert
Great choice - Immaculate and lovely, a coin that anyone would like!
However, if you showed the tarnished coin being discussed to a non-collector, most would assume that it had been in a fire at some point.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Hey you guys go easy...
Maybe @Cougar1978 is a younger reincarnation of Ricko. He's just not a fan of tarnish. I know it's a bit off topic, but it would be nice if he slipped in a picture of his table at a show.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
I don't purchase coins to chase a registry rating. These Mogans are priced way beyond my pay grade.
But if I did, this thread would give me pause.
Don't forget about PCGS. Or is that a dead horse that actually has been beaten enough already?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Beautiful coin. Ex of toning, grade 65 seems right, esp if you go by the premise the grade is the lower of the 2 sides. The obverse, again without toning considered, should be 66 at best with the chatter by nose and lower neck. JMHO. As noted above, should color market grade and add to grade or just get a +. The grade I would like to see is 65 ++.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Grading isn't typically done "by the premise the grade is the lower of the two sides". Rightly or not, the obverse carries significantly more weight than the reverse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is a funny post. Eye appeal is a very subjective part of the grading equation and thus one can easily see how a grade for a coin like this can change depending on the grading event. It is more absurd to use this as an excuse to knock one grading company.
I personally see this toning as a negative on eye appeal. I’d never pay 68 money for this.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
I always assume a “number” suggests some kind of objective standard. It puts a grader in a near-impossible situation, having to ascertain added value for color and implied “beauty”.
That's one of the definitions of "market-grading". From the images a 67 grade seems okay but 68 is a stretch.
I would be interesting to see if CAC green stickers it again at 68.
All I can say is she is in serious need of a dip. That's one fugly coin. THKS!
Coin Photographer.
Obviously I don’t do Morgan’s but those fairly deep ‘whacks’ on the neck would make a 68 grade look like a stretch if I was doing a GTG.
>
Just my .02c
Nah.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Just not a coin that I like.
If you agree with one grade does that mean CAC is one for three?
Or would you say their opinion or the market has evolved. A recent sale for multiples of recent bid. Or would you say it depends on who submits it, champions it, or grading with the right graders or just Tuesday. J.P.
sure make me confident to sent in a coin for grading...........
@Desert Moon said: It is more absurd to use this as an excuse to knock one grading company.
I wasn't knocking any grading company, just pointing out that fair play is, well, fair. Everyone holds out CAC as the final arbiter of what a coin's real grade is so I think it is worth noting when they disagree with themselves in such a short period of time. It's sort of like a coin grading example of getting caught with egg on your face. CAC green beans a 67+ but they didn't gold bean the exact same coin 1-2 years earlier when it was a 65+. That should make everyone stand up and notice. I'm half expecting the now MS68 coin to get a green bean.
The main thing to me is that I have never been a proponent of the grade-flation line of thinking. In my world the larger the pool of coins that are graded the better collectors, dealers and professional graders get at understanding the true grade of any specific coin series. That's how it's happened with me. I don't see coin grading as a static thing, never changing. The notion of grade-flation and this coin in particular tend to bear that out.
There is an interesting discussion on "gradeflation" going on in the CAC forum by some famous professionals. If you are J.P. Martin, I think you could add a lot to that discussion.