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Overweight Mexico 8 reales -Opinions needed!

rec78rec78 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 29, 2025 9:05PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

Hello, I have this Mexico 8 reales silver coin shown below. Numista has the weight of this coin at 27.07 grams. The coin shown weighs 29.03 grams which is quite a bit over weight (almost 2 grams) Is this a counterfeit coin? I know that underweight coins are sometimes fakes but what about overweight coins such as this. Please give me your opinion on the coin shown. One could spend a lifetime just studying 19th century Mexican 8 reales coins. Thanks for any reply in advance!




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Comments

  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,764 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not my area of expertise (I collect Latin America early milled 1 reales) but I see some green on the coin could use an acetone bath.

    NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers

  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,764 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2025 3:45PM

    Boosibri knows this series very well as does another long term collector bidask (but I believe he is on a break of collecting at the moment). Bidask could still be looking at the forums but I am not sure.

    NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers

  • Crazy8sCrazy8s Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    You uploaded pictures from 2 different coins. Which one are you asking about? Have you done a specific gravity test on the coin to determine silver content?

  • threefiftythreefifty Posts: 64 ✭✭✭

    Portraits are more of my thing but the style seems correct to me for San Luis Potosi for the date. I've seen a few overweight 1830s Zacatecas issues posted previously that were thought to be genuine. My take is genuine for this one.

  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,764 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2025 5:19PM

    The years I have been here I have not heard anyone mention any fake Cap & Ray 8 reales. Not sure that means much but I would assume there would be more talk if there was many fakes out there of this series. I have heard of fake Mexico milled 1732-1771 8 reales.

    Based on the ones I have seen your coin looks authentic but best to have others chip in.

    NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers

  • threefiftythreefifty Posts: 64 ✭✭✭

    @TheGoonies1985 said:
    The years I have been here I have not heard anyone mention any fake Cap & Ray 8 reales. Not sure that means much but I would assume there would be more talk if there was many fakes out there of this series. I have heard of fake Mexico milled 1732-1771 8 reales.

    Based on the ones I have seen your coin looks authentic but best to have others chip in.

    I believe the Cap and Ray series has by far the most contemporary counterfeits. I probably see at least one per day on Ebay, sometimes several. Not many modern forgeries, though, in contrast with columnarios. Portraits are in between.

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2025 9:13PM

    @Crazy8s said:
    You uploaded pictures from 2 different coins. Which one are you asking about? Have you done a specific gravity test on the coin to determine silver content?

    Sorry it is the 1842 That I am asking about. I edited the 1836 out.
    I do have 2 1842 contemporary counterfeit 8 reales. But this one is clearly different. I was just wondering if the wieght was in tolerence? as it seems too heavy. Perhaps it is over 90%?.

    image
  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,764 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2025 9:17PM

    @threefifty said:

    @TheGoonies1985 said:
    The years I have been here I have not heard anyone mention any fake Cap & Ray 8 reales. Not sure that means much but I would assume there would be more talk if there was many fakes out there of this series. I have heard of fake Mexico milled 1732-1771 8 reales.

    Based on the ones I have seen your coin looks authentic but best to have others chip in.

    I believe the Cap and Ray series has by far the most contemporary counterfeits. I probably see at least one per day on Ebay, sometimes several. Not many modern forgeries, though, in contrast with columnarios. Portraits are in between.

    Like I said I am not a specialist in this series not even close. I am not a specialist to be honest in any fake coins of any series from Latin America. So I will learn from this topic and that is a good thing. I had never heard of fakes in this series till today. I will sit back and read on I always like to learn more about Latin American coinage.

    NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers

  • genossegenosse Posts: 77 ✭✭✭

    @rec78 said:
    I do have 2 1842 contemporary counterfeit 8 reales. But this one is clearly different. I was just wondering if the wieght was in tolerence? as it seems too heavy. Perhaps it is over 90%?.

    The tolerance for 8 reales coins was 4 Castilian grains (4*0.0499=0.1996 grams or, for simplicity, 0.2 grams). That is, a coin taking into account the tolerance can weigh 26.87 or 27.27 grams.
    But I think your coin is genuine. I read that overweight coins were often sent to be melted down. Therefore, we can say that your coin is rare.
    P.S. Please show me your counterfeits of 8 reales from 1842.

    Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,210 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Need to do a specific gravity test to gauge the composition

    Latin American Collection

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @genosse said:

    Actua>

    @rec78 said:
    I do have 2 1842 contemporary counterfeit 8 reales. But this one is clearly different. I was just wondering if the wieght was in tolerence? as it seems too heavy. Perhaps it is over 90%?.

    The tolerance for 8 reales coins was 4 Castilian grains (4*0.0499=0.1996 grams or, for simplicity, 0.2 grams). That is, a coin taking into account the tolerance can weigh 26.87 or 27.27 grams.
    But I think your coin is genuine. I read that overweight coins were often sent to be melted down. Therefore, we can say that your coin is rare.
    P.S. Please show me your counterfeits of 8 reales from 1842.

    Actually they are on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/186899358278
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/186899379112
    .
    .
    Also an 1829 scheduled to be on ebay on Fed.12
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/186918857520

    image
  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 414 ✭✭✭

    Interesting piece... somebody ping @Swamperbob.

    Just to be sure, that scale is calibrated right?

    Assuming so, that's definitely a good bit over observed range. As alluded to above, there IS a quite a bit of range on 1830s-40s branch mint C&R (e.g., yes, have seen late 1830s Zs range between down near 26g and as high as ~28g), but 29.0g is quite high.

    That said, the detail absolutely looks regal, and Potosi mint is not a usual suspect for debased pieces made from sold, smuggled, etc. punches or dies (as Durango and to an extent Guanajuato were).

    Specific gravity test DEFINITELY in order here... or at least do XRF zaps in several spots on the coin.

    P.S. The (2) others @rec78 mentioned up on eBay now are the frequently seen garden variety 1842 Zs... easily discerned by design elements alone, plus off alloy.

  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 414 ✭✭✭

    Poking around on the Bank of Mexico's highly useful Numismatic Collection database... 1842 Potosi 8R and nearby years seem mostly right as prescribed in terms of weight.

    Select Advanced Search (Busqueda Avanzada), Monedas, and choose your desired refinements:

    https://www.banxico.org.mx/ColeccionNumismatica/

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