To CAC or not to CAC. That is the question.
Frick
Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
Going through some of the nicer coins in my collection, trying to decide if there is any real benefit to sending them to CAC. I know there is a premium for getting the bean, but I think strictly the appearance is sufficient to get the premium. Your thoughts and experience?
Thinking about starting with these two
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but I think strictly the appearance is sufficient to get the premium
Don't ever assume that your potential buyer is comfortable, knowledgeable or honest enough to pay a premium for a coin without having that premium pointed out to them. You are setting yourself up for failure in a future transaction with that attitude, especially if you are under any duress.
For a few bucks per coin, a little effort in shipping and some patience while waiting for results and the coins you in exchange get increased liquidity (for those that pass) and more money (for those that pass).
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The coins are more likely to sell faster and for a higher price if CAC approved. It’s a no-brainer to send these two, IMO—especially if you’ve owned them for some time and do not know if they have ever been reviewed.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Beautiful coins, thanks for sharing. I personally believe you would achieve a higher sales price with a CAC sticker for coins of that quality and value. There is a competing and what I consider to be less popular school of thought that it is better to sell nice coins in old holders without a sticker because it leaves open the possibility of a gold sticker in the buyer's mind. This second approach is probably less relevant for your coins as they are already very highly graded and are not likely strong candidates to receive gold stickers.
On Greysheet retail, the 83-CC carries a $2100 premium with CAC. For the 79-S, the premium is $1250. so yes, it's worth it.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Maybe think about it from the buyer’s perspective. They ( me included) are going to look at a lot of coins ( especially nice ones) and try to think why it didn’t sticker. Doesn’t matter that it hasn’t been sent in, if it’s a valuable coin, the assumption will be made that it has been submitted.
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To me it’s kinda worse that it hasn’t been submitted because if I see nothing wrong, I’m probably going to jump to a potential surface issue that might be visible with an in hand inspection.
At least that’s how I approach a purchase.
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Just kinda my .02 c’s.
Well worth the small investment to send to CAC.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
For the sticker or for a regrade ? CAC or CACG ? That is the question. i have no experience with either, but the coins are kick@$$
No doubt- CAC
Otherwise you’re leaving money on the table
They look terrific.
There's nothing to lose and much to gain. Send them to CAC!
$2700 upside on the pair, and a few bucks downside in expense sending it out. Definite yes assuming no obvious hidden problems we can't see in the pics (reverse, etc).
Owner, Lone Mountain Coin
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If you have owned the coins for awhile and are confident they have not been to CAC go for it,,,,,,
No guts,,,,,, No glory,,,,,, worth a shot,,,,,,, send them in.
If recent purchases at those lofty grades I would assume that they may have already have been sent to CAC.
Regardless,,,,, they are both beautiful coins.
Yes They will do better if you sell them. CAC has been around long enough people are going to ASSume it has already taken the trip with those grades and did not CAC. May as well protect yourself or your heirs.
I would go the sticker route and not have them in a CAC holder. People like me like the old holders with a CAC sticker.
Oh another note - If you have an old collection send them all in at the same time. I have a collection of Lincolns which was a top 20 when it was intact all in older holders and I got over 90% stickered.
There is absolutely no doubt that for U.S. coins valued above a few hundred dollars, coins with CAC stickers get more auction activity than “similarly nice” coins in the same TPG holder and grade, and usually end with higher prices!
Just pick out a few examples on GC, which has a high volume of stickered and non stickered coins for auction. And the difference of those higher prices are usually well above the cost of obtaining the sticker!
Many collectors who buy unstickered coins and don’t submit them for stickering, “say” they’ll submit them when they decide to sell their collection down the road. I believe that will often not happen, but regardless, it’s possible the collector will pass away first. I doubt the heir(s) will be submitting their collection down the road to CAC stickering.
I believe some/many of these unstickered coins do indeed merit CAC stickers, but if the sticker is not on the coin at the time of sale, money is being left in the table, whether by the collector, or their heir(s)!
I now see the two Morgan beauties you show in your post. Just call any dealer or auction house, and ask them for a rough estimate in the difference in value for those coins if they merit and have CAC stickers versus not! You may be shocked! Here’s a real life example on GC for the 1883-CC graded MS67 by PCGS. In April 2024 a non stickered one sold for $3,733 with the bp. Just one month later, one with a CAC sticker sold for $4,783 with the bp.
Here’s an example on GC for your 1879-S MS68. In August 2024 a non stickered one sold for $4,012 with the bp, and a month later another non stickered 68 sold for $4,281 with the bp. Then in November 2024, one with a CAC sticker was auctioned, and that one sold for $6,682! None of these were “toners”.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I was curious how the responses would go, and who would make them. I was getting back from a bike ride to the beach, and was cold and wanting dinner.
When I first read the initial post, only @TomB had responded. While there are some good and thoughtful responses here, EVERYTHING Tom said was perfect to me, and I just agreed. Even after reading through so far, if you remember just one response, his is the one you should bank on.
Also, looking at it from a serious buyer's eyes, read what @HillbillyCollector had to say. He makes a very good point of how buyers have been conditioned to look at some coins in today's age. Encapsulated US Coins surpassing a specific value become somewhat suspect (even though that shouldn't always be the case, especially with coins that haven't traded in the past 15+ years) when they do not have a bean.
I don't always agree with this (CAC has some preferences and prejudices too), and this may change in the future, but today, the best value for the seller is almost always old generation PCGS with CAC approval. It also is a good value to the buyer based on some known and accepted assumptions about quality and stability of the coins encapsulated, so really, it helps everyone in it's own way. And from what I've seen, trying to get the CAC approval on coins over the 500.-700. range is getting to be more and more the normal mode of operation. Many are also sent below that threshold.
Do coins like yours stand on their own? Of course they do. They were special before they got slabbed, and they're special now. There may be something the images don't show, or they may not hold up to further scrutiny for their grade, but they very well could. If they don't, nothing is lost but a little time and a few dollars. The coins will be judged on their existing condition.
But if you've owned those for a while, I would say there is nothing wrong, and absolutely everything in favor with trying to dress up the lapel on their dinner jacket before you send them out into the world, whenever that time might be. My opinion on those coins is you'll get stronger money from 99%+ of potential buyers.
my 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
High probably they've been there already unless you've owned them for a long time or for another reason know they've not been there. As the Rosen Numismatic Advisory article showed some years ago the percentage of cac approval went up as you went over the MS65 grade scale.
I’d sure like to see a quote from the Rosen Numismatic Advisory, so that we have some context. On its own, the above comment could give a lot of people false hope about chances of their cons stickering.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have owned both coins for 20++ years and they have never been to CAC. Reverse on both coins are just as nice as the obverse and are problem free. Holders are in perfect condition.
Thanks for all of the input and advice. Off to CAC at the Long Beach show next month....
Please report back once you have the results mid-March or so! My money is on both coins getting stickers!!!!
Thanks.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Two very impressive high grade dollars. As stated above - many reasons to send to CAC. I'll add that, at this high level/top population grade level, some buyers search for CAC coins only. When you or your heirs decide to sell, you will have the best exposure to high grade high level buyers with these coins CAC stickered.
That's exactly how I choose to do my searches - I filter for coins only graded by PCGS AND that have a CAC sticker!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
From what we can see, the coins look very nice. However, 1) the photos aren’t real sharp and 2) they’re only showing one side of the coins. So, while I certainly hope the coins receive CAC stickers, my money’s staying inside my pocket.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My guess is if they don't receive a CAC - it's PVC.
Crappy pictures taken with my iPhone and bad lighting. MUCH nicer in person....
Absolutely without a doubt worth it.
No ands, ifs, or buts send them to CAC.
You’ll get more money if they sticker and most perspective buyers will assume they did not sticker even if you never submitted them.
Are you stating this based on your interpretation of the coin from the photos, or is this just a blanket statement on why CAC rejects coins? I ask because you made a nearly identical comment on another "will it cac?" post.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Sadly based on experience after submitting 200+ PGGS coins to CAC/CACG on behalf of myself and other more experienced collectors. Our combined success rate was 40%. A significant percentage of coins that did not pass was due to PVC. PVC often can only be determined by viewing under "perfect" lighting conditions which even the best pictures will not show.
I wish both you and Frick all the best in your submissions.
Why would you not submit to CAC? If you can answer that, posters might be able to assuage any concerns that you have (e.g. lack of membership, shipping security, etc.).
There are far more coins that have not been to CAC then have been to CAC. I'm guessing that ratio drops as the rarity of the coin or grade increases. I find it odd to assume that a coin without a sticker has been to CAC and did not pass. What ever happened to buy the coin? I guess it's buy the sticker.
Hobby?,
Suurre....n
Sure, there are far more coins that haven’t been to CAC than have. However, in general, the higher the value of the coin (and the upside of a CAC sticker) the more likely the coin is to have been submitted.
So understandably, many potential buyers factor that into whether to pursue certain coins and if so, what they’re willing to pay for them. It’s a sensible way to play it safe, even if it means missing out on some coins that haven’t ever been submitted and might very well sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CDN CPG for CAC is higher for non CAC. Send them in to CAC, especially if big ticket material. If pass CAC MV higher. Otherwise other players may pick them off get all the money if CAC. If either or both those 2 sticker - - big win for you.
As far as getting extra money for them as is good luck - a player may pay a little more for them if non CAC but unlikely all the money. He wants all the profit if they CAC. That’s how a lot of them in the biz make extra money. The ones that fail CAC they may liquidate via auction or discount on bourse from their table.
Bottom line my offer based on oct of CDN bid so if not CAC to keep it simple then just use the non CAC bid. Want the extra $ get the item CACG / CAG.
Do it; you may learn something. I recently attempted some crossovers and reconsiderations. I learned I will never do it again.
USAF veteran 1984-2005
Let's look at the three scenarios. 1. A coin has been to CAC and receives a sticker and achieves value added. 2. A coin has not been to CAC and has no sticker and sells for less than the Stickered coin. 3. A coin has been to CAC and did not sticker but the buyer doesn't know. For the sake of honesty shouldn't the dealer disclose that the coin has been to CAC and did not pass?
Some dealers and collectors disclose that, even if not asked. Others do, but only if asked. And still others might not be forthcoming, even if asked,
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The honest ones do, but all a dealer can disclose is what they know for a fact, so if the coin isn't fresh onto the market they may only be able to tell you that they haven't submitted it to CAC. I'll always tell someone if I know for a fact that a coin has ben to NJ, but that's actually one of my pet peeves when dealers state "Coin hasn't been to CAC" when selling a coin that clearly isn't fresh...just needs some extra verbiage so it's not misleading.
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I too agree FWIW with the sentiments expressed above in general with the caveats being:
Poor pictures as stated with no reverses shown
Lack of experience in submitting coins to CAC.
It would be interesting followup to see the results if you do but in the meanwhile, might you be good enough to photograph the reverses and take a couple more of the obverses.
Addendum: even though the hard plastics of the holders are relatively inert, there can be light oxidation to the surfaces with PVC or other plastics or "restoration" solvent contaminants after many years.
Well, just Love coins, period.
It's not just you, its collectors and dealers alike. Many of us noticed it since....I don't know... maybe a year and 3 months ago?
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OGH and Rattlers that don't have stickers are notorious for PVC contamination.
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Reverse picture of the 1879 S
Still not a great picture.
Just send it to get CAC'd - do it for your ego and not for anything else.....LOL
😂😂😂😂
@Frick
If this helps you make your decision to send it off to CAC
I wouldn't buy either of those coins "without" the stickers
Like it was mentioned above, I'd wonder why it DIDN'T have a sticker
My biggest concern would be PVC as it's not to easy to see from a picture since I buy a lot of coins online and not seeing the coins in hand.
JMO
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
CAC coins, without a doubt fetch the highest premiums. Well, PCGS+CAC is the winning combo...IMO. I prefer CAC coins, but usually don't buy because sellers have their heads up their asses on prices.
Gee, that's quite a broad negative statement, and it happens to be incorrect as well.
Like me, many sellers of coins in PCGS holders with CAC stickers consign their coins to Heritage, GC, Stacks, etc. As such, it's the BUYERS of those coins that determine the price sold, NOT the sellers. When you don't buy because the pricing is too high for YOU, don't blame the sellers.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
It's not just wrong, it's paradoxical.
He likes PCGS+CAC and thinks they are superior coins. He does not usually buy them because the sellers ask PQ coin prices. Therefore, he thinks PQ coins are overpriced and does not like to buy PQ coins.
It was tongue in cheek Steve. Take a deep breath. Also, a retail price is different than an auction...you agree?
"Oh, I see" said the blind man.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
All I know is that those OGH's would look good with oval bling added on