8 Reales Madness Collection - 2024 Year in Review
TwoKopeiki
Posts: 9,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
2024 has been very eventful for me in the world of numismatics. This year marked my largest investments in coins, both in overall spending and on a single purchase. With the help of a few dealers (special shout out to Kent Ponterio who played a major role in this year's acquisitions), fellow collectors on CU/IG/TikTok, and Stacks auctioning off Phil Rutherford's Collection, I was able to add a number of missing dates and even certify some previously unknown Mexico City 8 Reales varieties.
The market for top-pop 8 Reales, both in terms of condition and rarity, remained exceptionally strong in 2024. In contrast, prices for more common Mexico 8 Reales portrait varieties softened by 20-30% from their 2022-2023 peak. The Rutherford Collection was a clear reflection of this trend. While I paid a premium for some of the rarer varieties and even lost out on 1-2 must-haves, I managed to fill some date gaps with more common coins that significantly underperformed.
2024 was the year I fully embraced incorporating damaged coins - chopped, cleaned, or otherwise mutilated - into my collection. This journey began last year with the addition of a heavily chopped 1783-FM 8 Reales from a collector in Asia and continued this year with several new discoveries, including the (so-far) unique 1803-FM I acquired in the Rutherford sale, all bearing chops and/or other damage. While I still personally dislike damage, the extreme rarity of some of these varieties means you take what you can find.
PCGS Collection showcase: 8 Reales Madness
My year started with adding another example of the 1809 over-assayer TH/HJ, which i discovered back in 2021. Here's my original post on the discovery. In a nutshell, it has been always believed that TH assayer initials (Tomás Butrón Miranda (T) and Henrique Buenaventura Azorín (H)) were succeeded by assayers HJ (Henrique Buenaventura Azorín (H) and Joaquín Dávila Madrid (J)) and that the only resulting over-assayer variety was HJ/TH. As of now, I was able to find examples of two different reverse dies showing the reverse over-assayer TH over HJ and worked with both TPGs to start recognizing this variety, even though it's not yet cataloged in Yonaka.
The first pick-up of the year was an already certified PCGS MS62 example from eBay that since have been properly attributed as the TH/HJ over-assayer.
I had the chance to attend NYINC for a day, where I met several board members and fellow numismatic enthusiasts. In the weeks leading up to the show, I had been corresponding with Kent Ponterio of World Numismatics, who was sorting through an incredible 3,000+ piece hoard of chopped portrait 8 Reales they acquired from Asia. Knowing my passion for varieties, Kent set aside any coins that appeared to be potential overdates or over-assayers. Thanks to his efforts, I added nine chopped 8 Reales to my collection—three of which were previously unknown varieties. Some of the highlights include:
1777/6-FM Mexico 8R: https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/2913082-001/NGCDetails/ - R2 in Yonaka.
1789/8-FM Mexico 8R (Carlos III): first NGC Details --> now PCGS details - R3 in Yonaka. 3-4 pieces known.
1799/8-FM Mexico 8R: https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/2913082-006/NGCDetails/ - Undocumented until now and likely an R4. While NGC recognized the variety, PCGS did not
1803/2-FT Mexico 8R: first NGC Details --> now PCGS details - Another discovery piece undocumented until now. R4.
1806/5-TH Mexico 8R: https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/2913082-009/NGCDetails/ - Another one that has been mentioned in a number of references in the past (Cayon, Elizondo, Calbeto, Yonaka) without any images. There are a few misattributed coins that bear the label of this variety, but all the ones I have documented so far are the variety with a die chip in the date that was sometimes called an 1806/0, with Yonaka rightfully correcting the attribution as die chip in date in his reference. Likely an R3.
Next purchase came from Spain through an Instagram connection. Over the years I have documented and purchased a number of potential 1800/7XX 8 Reales, even getting some recognized by NGC before. This purchase was the first one that had a decent shot of being straight graded even with an obverse wipe, which it did at both services as AU 55.
Next I picked up this inexpensive 8 Reales in a Tauler y Fau sale. Neat repair on the 8 in the denomination 8R. It appears that the digit was first punched into the die upside-down and then repaired.
While checking eBay auctions, i saw an 1807 with decent color, luster, and a die clash that I thought had the right look. It graded AU58.
The next two additions came from Heritage Auctions, both as unattributed varieties. The first was an 1805/4 overdate, and the second a particularly rare 1815 JJ/HJ over-assayer. I had hoped the variety might slip under the radar of other specialists, but judging by the hammer price, it was clearly detected.
First one is a lightly toned 1805-TH Mexico 8 Reales in PCGS AU55.
This is a less obvious example of a 5 over 4 overdate. I have roughly 20 examples documented across 4 or 5 die pairs, so while it's listed as Rare in Yonaka, it's definitely a more available variety.
Close-up of the overdate:
The second coins is one i'm pretty excited about. It's an unattributed 1815-JJ/HJ Mexico 8 Reales in an older NGC MS62 holder with an above-average strike and an overall appealing look to it. It's R2 in Yonaka and I have documented 7 examples so far. I have also certified 2 of those 7 in the past at NGC, one as AU58 and another as AU50, but neither would have crossed to PCGS nor were they as attractive as this coin. The best example of this variety for as long as I remember has been a nice PCGS AU55 owned by jfransch as part of his amazing portraits varieties set. I'm hoping this MS62 is as nice in-hand as it is in the photos to give John's coin a run for it.
What I also like about this variety is that unlike the 1805/4 above, this is one of the varieties with only one die pair ever documented. Plus it can also be seen with a naked eye.
Next we have the S.P. Rutherford sales conducted by Stacks and Bowers. There were a number of amazing varieties, including some heavy hitters in the portraits series:
1778-FM NGC VF30 - $24,000
1872 (1782) NGC VF Details - $26,400
1786/5 PCGS AU58 - $7,800
... just to name a few.
I acquired the only known 1803 with assayer initials FM, graded EF Details by NGC. After tracing its provenance back to its original 1981 sale, I engaged in extensive discussions with leading experts in both variety attribution and counterfeit detection. Despite its NGC certification, I had lingering doubts about the coin's authenticity, making it a risky purchase. However, with Kent's help, I conducted XRF metal analysis, which confirmed the correct alloy composition. Since then, the coin has successfully crossed over to PCGS.
Thanks to Rutherford's focus on varieties, I was able to add several other noteworthy coins to my collection this year, including:
An unattributed 1777/6 overdate, which is surprising considering how clear it is.
One of the highlights was acquiring the rare 1801/0-FM overdate variety (R3) in a straight VF25 grade - a significant find. Combined with the chopped 1801/0-FT (R4) I picked up from Kent at USMex in October and a cleaned 1801/0-FT/FM (R3) already in my collection, I’ve now completed all the 1801 varieties.
1801/0-FM (Rutherford)
1801/0-FT (Kent Ponterio)
1801/0-FT/FM
The price was right for these 3:
1808/7 in PCGS AU58
1809-TH minor bust variety in PCGS AU53 
1810-TH scarcer initials for the year in PCGS AU55
I also upgraded my existing 1811/0 8 Reales to an attractive MS61 example
Picked-up an unattributed overdate 1814/3 in PCGS AU53
And also upgraded my 1816/5 example to Rutherford's gorgeously toned AU58
My second show of the year was the USMex in Arizona, where, in addition to the 1801/0-FT mentioned earlier, I added a fascinating early War of Independence Durango 8 Reales. Crude and severely overweight at 39.3 grams, it took 18 years to finally convince @MrEureka to part with it. After discussing it with Juan Felipe Ramirez, author of Coins of the Mexican War of Independence, he noted that the bust style suggests the date being 1811 or 1812. He also theorized that the unusual weight and poor planchet quality might indicate a 'progress trial' striking. It’s a very intriguing piece, and I’m thrilled to have it in my collection.
Additionally, I saw a great looking 1813-HJ 8 Reales in NGC AU53 holder at Chris Alvarez's table and it also came home with me. It was a bit of a gamble, as the darker (but very original) toning muted the luster quite a bit which PCGS doesn't like in AU grades. But if you've ever tried to find a nice 1813-HJ example, you know how hard it is to find anything this original.
While at USMex, I had the opportunity to preview the upcoming Sedwick sale and, ironically, spotted another unattributed 1809 TH/HJ—this time in an NGC MS61 holder. Though not particularly attractive, with its deep gunmetal-gray patina and hints of luster around the edges, it’s an exceptionally well-struck piece that clearly displays the variety, including the distinctive vertical line of the J cutting through the middle of the H.
Fittingly, I’m ending the year with the same variety I started it with, down to the exact die pair.
If you’ve read this far, I truly appreciate you coming along for the ride. Here’s hoping your 2024 was just as exciting, and may 2025 bring even more amazing finds and stories!
Comments
Great post Roman!!
You've had a great year spending a small fortune
You have been collecting these for a long time now. Approximately how many known varieties are you still missing from your collection?
It's always great to find unknown varieties. We are still discovering new Gunmoney varieties here in Ireland.
Peace
Wow! Read thru twice to make sure I didn't miss a morsel. Congrats on an awesome accomplishment. 2025 here we come. Peace Roy
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Great write up and congrats on the outstanding year! Here’s to an equally strong 2025!
Latin American Collection
I’m curious if you have rethought either the objectives or scope of your collection at all as you have brought in coins which might not meet your previous quality standards, but are essentially unobtainable if those standards are maintained. Perhaps compartmentalizing them almost like a set within a set.
Latin American Collection
Terrific additions…Well played.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Thank you for your feedback, everyone!
That’s a great question. I definitely struggled with the idea of bringing in coins that don’t meet my usual quality standards, but I’ve come to see them as placeholders as I work on finding problem-free examples in the future. I suspect there will be a few of these that will not get upgraded, but ... dum spiro, spero. Initially, I kept these coins separate from my main collection, almost as a distinct set, but over time I ended-up integrating them. They’re all part of the same broader collection now, serving as a reminder of the absolute rarity and challenge of hunting down these elusive varieties.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Beautiful post! Amazing coins and cheers to 2025!
Anthony the Coinman
_Keen Collector, Avid Researcher, Occasional Dealer
_
Instagram: @anthonythecoinman
Thank you. There are at present just short of a 100 coins in the 1772-1821 Mexico Portrait Series Varieties set. I'm about 29 coins away from completing it. That is until new varieties are discovered and certified.
I'd love to see your Gunmoney set!
8 Reales Madness Collection
@TwoKopeiki congratulations on your 2024 progress and the major advancement of your collection.
I think it’s a good thing that you’ve stopped letting the TPG services (and US coin tradition) dictate what is a “good” collectible coin and thus worthy of inclusion.
If you are forming a definitive collection of such coins, there is no way around the fact that a few will be less than choice, but the hunt for better specimens will take a lifetime and hence give you a lifetime of enjoyment in that hunt.
My own journey in the collection of patterns is similar to yours. Patterns were meant to be used by the folks approving and producing the issued coins. Hence, they were often mishandled in the process of performing their intended function. (Unlike US patterns made for collectors.)
If you need a specimen in the quest to be complete, sometimes there is no other choice. And in fact, those less than stellar coins can add a certain “charm” to a collection. Or some historical context at least. After all, so much of the bust coinage was chopped, why not have a representative or two in the collection, especially when it serves double duty as a needed variety.
Since those coins were workhorses of commerce, it’s a miracle any choice pieces survived at all. And you’ve got plenty of those.
Don’t get me wrong, I like gems as much as the next guy, and aspire to them, but variety is the spice of life!
Thanks Stephen. I completely agree and share a very similar perspective. As you said, the pursuit of perfection is a lifelong journey, and that’s part of the joy - continuously striving for upgrades while appreciating the history and uniqueness of each coin along the way.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Impressive @TwoKopeiki
Awesome coins and great write up thanks for sharing!!!
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
TwoKopeiki
I very much enjoyed reading your post and seeing the fruits of your labor in hunting down these elusive varieties, and in some instances being the first specialist to convince the TPG's to recognize the variety.
I have such a tremendous amount of respect for your knowledge. I appreciate that you let us enjoy your journey (of 8 Reales Madness) vicariously through your well written and detailed posts. I think most here feel, as I do, that the way in which you have carefully and thoughtfully built-out your collection is nothing shy of admirable.
I suspect that long before this year you knew in the back of your mind that at some point or another, in order to even approach completeness, you would have to bend a bit on the high standards that comprise the majority of your collection. It can be a harder choice to make than what some might think but it's one that you do for yourself and I'm glad you did it.
Fantastic progress in 2024!!!
Wishing you continued success in 2025 and beyond.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Roman - so impressive ! Your commitment to this theme island continued elevation of the collection is what this is all about. I remember when you were just ramping up.
Waiting for the book to come out
Outstanding summary post TwoKopeiki. I enjoyed your posts throughout the year, you had some amazing pickups. Looking forward to seeing what 2025 brings for you!
Thank you all for such kind words, it truly means a lot. This journey has been both challenging and rewarding, and hearing this kind of feedback motivates me to keep sharing.
I think that the way the PCGS registry has the sets laid out helps with the fact that certain coins are not available in problem-free grades. I have both the 1772-1821 base date set going, which can be completed without sacrificing any of my personal standards, but also the more advanced complete varieties set.
Thanks again everyone for the comments! Here’s to continuing the journey together into 2025 and beyond!
8 Reales Madness Collection
@TwoKopeiki I think for Mexican coins is always the case that for many issues, one have to sacrifice standards as the coins do not exist in good condition. Many do, but if one has to complete the series, either the coins do not exist, or they are in poor shape. Well done, very impressive!
Have you considered sending Brad Yonaka images of the new varieties you have found over the years so if he does come out with a 2nd edition to his book on this series he can add them to the benefit of all collectors?
Brad mentions in all his books to contact him via e-mail with images of coins not in his books.
PM me if you want his e-mail address.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Thanks for the offer. I chat with Brad relatively frequently and there are a number of my coins used as plates in the original edition.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Always great to add to knowledge in our hobby. I am sure Brad would be happy to add your new finds to a future edition.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
What an incredible year! Thanks for sharing your coins and your thought process as your collection has evolved this year. I can certainly understand how the quest for varieties has led you to broadening your horizons into chopmarked coins. I think these coins have a lot of character and certainly deserve a place in your collection, especially as some varieties can only be found on chopped hosts as you explained.
Your relentless pursuit of details and the rewards of making discoveries have been hugely inspirational to me so thanks again for sharing everything you know on so many platforms. Happy hunting!
@TwoKopeiki I want to note that US early copper (large cent and half cent) collectors, who generally collect varieties as you do, regularly add what could be called Details Coins to their collections because that’s all that’s available or affordable.
So you are on a well-trodden path.
I am putting together a collection of 1858 Canada cents by die marriages. There are 103 known marriages. Some are very, very scarce. Out of necessity, I have a few "details" coins. You do what you have to do.
If I must include a details coin, I usually try to find one that shows die-defining markers clearly. Cleaned coins can sometimes be handy for this reason.
http://www.victoriancent.com
Speaking of compromises - just picked this very rare 1809 8 Reales over-assayer variety HJ over TH over at Heritage. Paid $150 bucks after chasing an AU55 example in the Rutherford sale up to $3k without winning it. Happy with the overall look of it, as well. The variety is very clear and unobstructed by chops and overall the coin presents well even with the damage.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I like it! I may do a mint set of resplandores with chops. I ended up with one. They’re pretty cool!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Will you submit to label it correctly?
Congratulations on a great year of collecting. It has been a great collector relationship with you over the last 14 years since we first met discussing the 1814/13 HJ 8 reales on a different forum. You have helped me build my collection by discovering new varieties that force me to go back into my dusty cobwebbed boxes of duplicates acquired back in 1980's when almost no information about varieties existed (and yes I found a few that escaped my eye back then). I am honored to consider you friend and enjoy our brief contact at USMexNA in October. Keep finding new varieties, keep posting such great info and I wish the best for you in 2025