Odd feature on various dated Trade Dollars- is this a known attribution point for these?

burfle23

I have images of other dated "CC's" with what I call the "notched R", but only on known counterfeits...

Interested in the Trade experts here opinion and possible variety for this!

PeakRarities

@lermish

@ChopmarkedTrades

lermish

I'm not aware of this feature on any legitimate die.

Calling @Crypto

ChopmarkedTrades

Never seen this notch before on a genuine piece. The rims look rather thin and the denticles on the reverse are extremely soft, this looks like a fake.

Eldorado9

Looks like a possible fake to me too.

Eldorado9

For reference, taken from Coinfacts

FlyingAl

The coin is fake. Note the reverse is missing denticals from 9-12. Denticals are hubbed first, as they generally have the highest relief on the coin (they're deepest in the die). Extreme fuzziness or lack of the denticals is a strong indicator of a fake.

NewEnglandRarities

Agree just another Chinese fake. Jack, you are doing a great service my friend! If only we could have a true Everyman database of this, but it’s nearly impossible

kaz

I'm sure Burfle knows it's a fake. I just checked all my CC reverse images and don't see the notch on any, but I ran across a photo of a fake I saved from eBay some years ago and there it is! Sounds like a useful die marker.

lermish

@kaz said:
I'm sure Burfle knows it's a fake. I just checked all my CC reverse images and don't see the notch on any, but I ran across a photo of a fake I saved from eBay some years ago and there it is! Sounds like a useful die marker.

Agreed, he is a counterfeit identification expert, he knows it's fake. He just wanted to know if that "Notched R" also appeared on genuine coins. Which neither @kaz , nor @ChopmarkedTrades , nor I think it does. Still pending anyone else in the know but I think we are near consensus.

FlyingAl

I think that in this case, looking for the "notched R" is pointless. The coin is more obviously fake in other ways.

burfle23

Great responses from an awesome knowledge base; yes, no question I know it is fake and as I noted I have images of various dated ones. I always check with experts before I write an article on counterfeits and am always interested in the source coin or variety whether that seems pointless or not...

ChrisH821

@FlyingAl said:
The coin is fake. Note the reverse is missing denticals from 9-12. Denticals are hubbed first, as they generally have the highest relief on the coin (they're deepest in the die). Extreme fuzziness or lack of the denticals is a strong indicator of a fake.

I'm not arguing that the coin is real, but there are plenty of authentic coins with weak denticles out there, maybe not dollars but there are in other series.
Unless something was fundamentally different in the 1870's, die blanks are made high in the center, so the central elements are hubbed first. Think 1984 1C DDO, only center most elements are doubled.
https://doubleddie.com/58201.html

https://www.coinnews.net/2013/09/13/how-the-philadelphia-mint-makes-hubs-and-dies-to-produce-coins/

FlyingAl

@ChrisH821 said:

@FlyingAl said:
The coin is fake. Note the reverse is missing denticals from 9-12. Denticals are hubbed first, as they generally have the highest relief on the coin (they're deepest in the die). Extreme fuzziness or lack of the denticals is a strong indicator of a fake.

I'm not arguing that the coin is real, but there are plenty of authentic coins with weak denticles out there, maybe not dollars but there are in other series.
Unless something was fundamentally different in the 1870's, die blanks are made high in the center, so the central elements are hubbed first. Think 1984 1C DDO, only center most elements are doubled.
https://doubleddie.com/58201.html

https://www.coinnews.net/2013/09/13/how-the-philadelphia-mint-makes-hubs-and-dies-to-produce-coins/

You're absolutely correct - I had forgotten about this.

Regardless, dies were usually hubbed several times in the 1870s, and the mint would have required full or nearly full denticals for the die to be put into service

Maywood

You're absolutely correct - I had forgotten about this.

@FlyingAl, you crack me up. I can't believe you even know this!!

burfle23

A few of the other dated fakes with this reverse; some have a break at "OF" also.

Pulling together my stuff for a future Coin Week Fun with Fakes article...

MsMorrisine

fun with fakes is a great title

mbogoman

I love the 78-CC with the type 1 reverse. I've seen a few of those lately...