@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Should Doug Mientkiewicz be in? If Hernandez was to get in because of his glove it really opens the flood gates for the first base position.
Defense is certainly under valued for first baseman but you still need to produce
You can't be serious comparing Hernandez to Doug Mientkiewicz. First of all, Hernandez was an elite offensive player in a mostly down offensive era. He has a higher career OPS plus then Don Mattingly, Tony Perez and Gil Hodges, to name a few. He has an MYP, an MVP Runner up and finished 4th and 8th in MVP in other different seasons. He was a leader on two different World Series champions with two different organizations. He was also the best fielding first baseman of all time. He is to first base was Ozzie Smith was to Shortstop.
@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
I had to read Tabe's comment twice to understand it clearly, but I agree with what he said.
Hernandez was suspended by MLB in 1986. There was a provision that if he, or any of the other suspended players, donated some amount of their salary to drug prevention they could play.
I don't read his statement as saying Olerud was better. I think everyone agrees Hernandez was a great defensive 1b (also not saying he wasn't offensively well above average).
Hernandez's years in St. Louis and his problems with drugs and management seem well established. When he was traded to the Mets he did become a different guy in the clubhouse.
@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
I had to read Tabe's comment twice to understand it clearly, but I agree with what he said.
Hernandez was suspended by MLB in 1986. There was a provision that if he, or any of the other suspended players, donated some amount of their salary to drug prevention they could play.
I don't read his statement as saying Olerud was better. I think everyone agrees Hernandez was a great defensive 1b (also not saying he wasn't offensively well above average).
Hernandez's years in St. Louis and his problems with drugs and management seem well established. When he was traded to the Mets he did become a different guy in the clubhouse.
He did not miss any time from baseball in a suspension like Arod. He was not involved in the sale or in traffic of drugs. He was a user - like Dave Parker and Paul Molitor (People forget about him) and others. I was talking about being a leader on the field - not clubhouse - which he always was, even in St. Louis..
@stockdude_ said:
Keith Henandez is the one that really bothers me not being in. MVP, WS with two different teams, fantastic fielder, great hitting numbers. He needs to get in there
162 homers at 1B just ain't enough. If you like Keith Hernandez to get in, beat the drum for John Olerud who was basically as good a fielder and a better hitter.
Olerud was a fine player who had two awesome seasons (93 and 98). He could not touch Hernandez with the glove and didn't have the leadership qualities of Hernandez.
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
I had to read Tabe's comment twice to understand it clearly, but I agree with what he said.
Hernandez was suspended by MLB in 1986. There was a provision that if he, or any of the other suspended players, donated some amount of their salary to drug prevention they could play.
I don't read his statement as saying Olerud was better. I think everyone agrees Hernandez was a great defensive 1b (also not saying he wasn't offensively well above average).
Hernandez's years in St. Louis and his problems with drugs and management seem well established. When he was traded to the Mets he did become a different guy in the clubhouse.
He did not miss any time from baseball in a suspension like Arod. He was not involved in the sale or in traffic of drugs. He was a user - like Dave Parker and Paul Molitor (People forget about him) and others. I was talking about being a leader on the field - not clubhouse - which he always was, even in St. Louis..
Regarding Hernandez. He was suspended but he was able to play in 86 because he accepted the provision to donate a portion of his salary. Whether or not that’s the same as anyone else is a different matter.
Molitor also cheated on his wife.
I don’t know what the difference between a leader on the field and a leader in the clubhouse entails exactly. The good news is that everyone is welcome to their opinion on things like this.
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
Well, you're wrong about him being suspended. And Whitey Herzog called him a cancer. And he was found by MLB to have "facilitated the distribution of drugs":
From Whitey's book: “Keith Hernandez was dogging it … He’s the best defensive first baseman I’ve ever seen. But on offense, he was loafing. He loafed down the line on ground balls and he wasn’t aggressive on the bases.
“What I couldn’t live with was his attitude. I’ve got two basic rules _ be on time and hustle _ and he was having trouble with both of them … His practice habits were atrocious. He’d come out for batting practice, then head back to the clubhouse to smoke cigarettes and do crossword puzzles … It was getting to the point where I was fed up with him.”
And, well, it's 100% fact that Olerud improved the defense of those around him (as demonstrated by the stat I cited). Range is important, sure, but so is stopping throwing errors which Olerud was elite at doing.
Will Clark and Keith Hernandez both had an impressive .384 OBP for their career. Clark had more power but Keith won a gold glove almost every year. Will 137 OPS+ Keith 128 OPS+
I think both should be in the HOF along with John Olerud.
Comments
Absolutely not true that he "couldn't touch Hernandez with the glove". Besides having a higher fielding percentage than Hernandez, Olerud excelled in reducing errors by his teammates due to poor throws. As an example, Rey Ordonez went from 27 errors to 9 when Olerud joined the Mets.
As for "leadership", you do realize Hernandez was traded by St. Louis because he was a "cancer" who was distributing drugs and later got suspended for a year by MLB, right?
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In where? The HOF?
That could be the single most insanely preposterous statement on these message boards of ALL TIME.
And there have been some doozies!
You can't be serious comparing Hernandez to Doug Mientkiewicz. First of all, Hernandez was an elite offensive player in a mostly down offensive era. He has a higher career OPS plus then Don Mattingly, Tony Perez and Gil Hodges, to name a few. He has an MYP, an MVP Runner up and finished 4th and 8th in MVP in other different seasons. He was a leader on two different World Series champions with two different organizations. He was also the best fielding first baseman of all time. He is to first base was Ozzie Smith was to Shortstop.
Ridiculous. Hernandez was never suspended. And your statements are not accurate on the subject. Olerud did not have the range Hernandez had and he was a leader on the field.
I had to read Tabe's comment twice to understand it clearly, but I agree with what he said.
He did not miss any time from baseball in a suspension like Arod. He was not involved in the sale or in traffic of drugs. He was a user - like Dave Parker and Paul Molitor (People forget about him) and others. I was talking about being a leader on the field - not clubhouse - which he always was, even in St. Louis..
I would rather see Clark in before Hernandez.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Regarding Hernandez. He was suspended but he was able to play in 86 because he accepted the provision to donate a portion of his salary. Whether or not that’s the same as anyone else is a different matter.
Molitor also cheated on his wife.
I don’t know what the difference between a leader on the field and a leader in the clubhouse entails exactly. The good news is that everyone is welcome to their opinion on things like this.
Well, you're wrong about him being suspended. And Whitey Herzog called him a cancer. And he was found by MLB to have "facilitated the distribution of drugs":
https://web.archive.org/web/20060915113244/https://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/columnist/bodley/2004-03-04-bodley_x.htm
From Whitey's book:
“Keith Hernandez was dogging it … He’s the best defensive first baseman I’ve ever seen. But on offense, he was loafing. He loafed down the line on ground balls and he wasn’t aggressive on the bases.
“What I couldn’t live with was his attitude. I’ve got two basic rules _ be on time and hustle _ and he was having trouble with both of them … His practice habits were atrocious. He’d come out for batting practice, then head back to the clubhouse to smoke cigarettes and do crossword puzzles … It was getting to the point where I was fed up with him.”
And, well, it's 100% fact that Olerud improved the defense of those around him (as demonstrated by the stat I cited). Range is important, sure, but so is stopping throwing errors which Olerud was elite at doing.
Will Clark and Keith Hernandez both had an impressive .384 OBP for their career. Clark had more power but Keith won a gold glove almost every year. Will 137 OPS+ Keith 128 OPS+
I think both should be in the HOF along with John Olerud.
Yes, he was. Never convicted of anything, and nobody was going to make a public statement accusing him of it and risk getting sued, but yes, he was.