Grading comments?
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Posts: 413 ✭✭✭✭
So after reading quite a few posts/comments on grading (some with photos), I was wondering what members here would think about TPG services charging a small fee (perhaps $10 or so) for a ‘graders comments/remarks’ as to why a coin graded the way it did? Many of us can look and look and not understand why a grader grades a coin the way they do, and this might help us learn what they look for or why they decided what they did. We all seem to speculate what the grader saw, but that is just an educated guess that may or may not be correct. Personally, I would love to see a grading diagram (much like a diamond grading diagram that shows inclusions) with the areas circled that represented the flaws or problems the graders saw. This would mainly be available for higher end coins that generally have minor flaws. What do you think?
Comments
Small fee? Would love it, but doubt it will happen, at least not for a small fee. It would throw the rhythm of the grading game way off, and would open the grader (and the TPG) up to all kinds of criticism and second guessing.
Large fee? Yeah, I can see it. Might even happen at certain levels (although probably not written).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I totally agree it would be great. Take some notes as you grade and turn them in with the grade. Send them back with a invoice that shows some simple explanation as to why the coin graded the way they did.
It's not going to happen though.
There may be one grading company that's open to it but I doubt it will be PCGS.
PCGS happens to be my favorite TPG.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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I don’t know. If each coin is sent to grading with a photo diagram of the obverse and reverse of the coin to be graded the grader can just circle the problem area he sees on the diagram. Probably wouldn’t take more than a few seconds…….especially for 68/69 graded coins.
This was done in the past by one of the old authentication services - INSAB. It was called In-depth grading. I don't know what it cost. I forgot all about it until recently, I saw the form they used somewhere. After lunch I will search for a link.
PS Sometimes CAC tells people why their coin did not bean. They do it for free.
Thank you! Karl
All you would be paying for is just a more detailed OPINION.
In many if not most cases, it would take longer to make such notes than it would to grade the coin. And different graders might have different reasons for assigning a particular grade to a coin.
It would slow down the grading considerably and if adopted at all it would probably cost a lot more than $10. I also suspect that much of the feedback would lead to dissatisfied submitters.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can state this is true. It is a very small notation, but if you pay attention I think it can be a valuable piece of information into JA's grading thought process
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
So far I couldn't find the form they used for In-Depth Grading but I found this from a 2016 Coin World article. Who knew?:
The Institute of Numismatic Authenticators, the first U.S. coin authentication service, was founded in 1962 by that era’s ultimate numismatic scholar, Walter H. Breen. It quickly closed, but it's letterhead remained in use by the founder for years. Hobby leaders found that educational programs alone could not cleanse the numismatic stable. Finally, some decided to divert a river through it, in the form of a third-party service to determine authenticity (and eventually, grade). The second such service, American Numismatic Association Certification Service, was founded in 1972, and the third, International Numismatic Society Authentication Bureau, was established in 1976. Thirty years ago, the first modern grading service, which certified authenticity, determined grade, and “slabbed” coins, Professional Coin Grading Service, opened its doors.
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68/69 coins wouldn't be the issue
VF35 ... grader circles area in right field "loss of luster, hairlines, possible mildly cleaned at one time, seems to have re-toned, market acceptable", circles are in left stars "multiple dings and hits with noticeable wear on stars", circles part of rim "rim hits, minor" ... flips coin over ...
Or
VF35 ... grader circles entire obverse and reverse ... "does not quite warrant EF40 grade ... because I said so"
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
……..
Look at the 1995W ASE….and the recent 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair coins/medals. The price between 68/69/70 is substantial…..so the small ‘defect’ mark might make the ‘grade’ more palatable in my opinion….or at least you would know. JMHO of course.
Not arguing, at all. Having the full knowledge of what a grader see's would be very valuable information.
VERY valuable.
Do you see the catch here? In addition to all the other coins that would be subject to this added procedure and all of the problems it could create, and the massive cost it would add in grading, admin, etc., do you really think the TPG's want to spoon feed the average submitter to be a pro' grader? Where is their money in that?
To coin the phrase (pun intended) ... If the grade doesn't fit, you must resubmit.
And frankly, those coins you mention are the ones that probably move through the grading process the fastest, by probably the most junior (although still experienced and professional) graders. I can tell you if I had experience and seniority I wouldn't be wanting to grade 1000 (or however many) modern issues every day.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
This should not be necessary for circulated coins below AU58. There are plenty of books, online images, and video posts to get a good handle on grading circulated coins. IMO, what would be helpful is determining the AU/MS line and the 68-70 grade. In real life what you ask would cause mor problems than it would cure. IMO, right now there are plenty of "naked eye graded" coins in MS/PR-70 holders FROM EVERY TPGS that should never have been assigned that grade. Buyer Beware.
Just to be clear ... I am not asking for an expanded explanation.
And to wit, Buyer Beware at ALL levels. Plenty of AU63/64 and Superb (but really Choice) coins out there, as well as "mistakes", "oversights" or "disagreements" at EVERY level.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
However, in this day and age of counterfeits it might also help in distinguishing a real vs counterfeit coin. You have to admit, some of these counterfeiters are getting very good……😉 Again, this is just a suggestion……
Small fee? You must not understand the grading process at the TPGs. The graders spend vanishingly little time with a coin and then record their grades (I know, I've seen it in real-time). To then add comments, when coins are generally assessed a grade based upon multiple criteria, would eat far more time of the graders than their actual, current jobs allow them to dedicate to a coin. Perhaps if you paid triple or quadruple the actual grading fees for this service it might happen, but it also might take a ten-fold increase or more to make it profitable for the TPGs.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Not the first time this has been brought up, certainly won't be the last time this is brought up, highly unlikely to ever happen. Not only is $10 not even close to enough to cover the cost of this service, it would place the TPG's into a position where the current subjective nature (what some like to call the "art") of grading would be opened up to possible litigation. Not going to happen.
My Collection of Old Holders
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PCGS offered this as a service once upon a time. It was called "Presidential Review", and David Hall would give you commentary about the coin. No idea how many times it was used and can't remember the fee.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Here is the example you were referring to. I used to own this and later sold it to a forum member on here.
Wow! Thanks! Cheers, karl