Question about Eisenhower Dollar reverse design types
BillF7796
Posts: 8 ✭
Hi everyone, here are 2 1971-s reverse type 1 coins from pcgs website. They seem to have different eagles yet are considered the same reverse design? Even the earth seems slightly different on each coin? Can the eagle change on a reverse type 1 ike and still be considered a type 1?
I mostly search Lincoln cents and quarters and recently purchased a few ikes. 2 of these ikes are 72d's with one eagle resembling the 71-s on the left and the other eagle more similar to the 71-s on the right?
The 72d on the left has an eagle that is slightly higher relief then the flatter eagle on the 72d in the right image. When I came across these 72d's I thought that maybe they were different reverse designs? Can the eagle change on the different Eisenhower design types?
Thanks for your help and for taking a look!
Earth for the 72d on the left
Earth for the 72d on the right
Comments
Same type coin just a weaker strike on one?
It seems like a different eagle is on both coins? I highlighted some of the areas that seem different to me on the 2 1971-s reverse type 1's from PCGS website.
The eagle on the 72d that's on the left and the 71s that's on the left are the coins I'm interested in. These eagle's and earth's seem different then other type 1 reverses.
Reminds me of the 1971 D Eisenhower Dollars : Type 1 - Friendly Eagle - Accented Crater Lines Ike dollar.
peacockcoins
There is still a lot to be learned about Ikes. Two weeks ago a collector in my club showed me a new discovery coin that is on its way to PCGS. I was sworn to keep quiet until it is slabbed. I've started buying Ikes to search for coins with the same date and mint that are different sub-types and not due to die wear. I think the OP has found something.
You are mistaken; all of the photos you have posted show the Type 1 reverse (the 1971-S as well as the 1972-D). Further, there is nothing different in the design of the eagles or earths shown in these photos.
Any differences you may see in the proofs are due to the lighting in the photos. Business strike Ikes are subject to weak striking, as well as loss of detail due to die deterioration from overused dies, which both have an impact on the appearance of the coin.
The labeling in the graphic you posted is confusing; just to clarify, the Friendly eagle reverse design is a different design altogether, and is not the Type 1 reverse design shown in the OP photos.
Hi IkesT thanks for taking a look! I agree that at first glance the earths look like a type 1 reverse. However, the earths from the coins that I posted in the pictures on the left appear to have a larger Pacific ocean, lower South America and Florida points slightly more to the south.
The eagle on the 72d on the left is thicker, rounder and slightly higher relief then the flat eagle on the right. For example, the legs, hip and body of the eagle on the left is thicker and rounder then the flat legs and body of the eagle on the right. I think the flat eagle on the right is typical for a type 1 reverse. Also, the eagle on the left seems to have a different approach to the moon compared to how the eagle on the right approaches the moon?
Notice the extra thickness in the body and hips of the eagle on the left. Compared to the flat eagle on the left.
So I was actually shopping for a 1976 proof quarter on a online coin shop when I came upon these 2 1972d ikes. These coins seemed different so I bought them to get free shipping for my order. Not knowing anything about the different types of ikes I began looking for eagles that seemed similar to the 72d ikes that I purchased.
On PCGS website there are 3 1971-s reverse type 1 coins.
The eagle and the earth on the left in this image seems different when compared to the other 2 eagles. The 71-s on the left seems very similar to my thicker 72d. The other 2 71-s eagles seem similar to the flatter 72d.
This is the eagle that I'm comparing my thicker 72d too. This eagle doesn't have the outstretched approach that the other eagle's do. Also, notice the flat step like vertical feathers on the wing to the left of the eagle. This seems similar to the vertical feathers on the thicker 72d.
@IkesT
You can LOL all you wish but my eighty year old eyes allow me to see a TOTAL difference in these two photos. Do You agree?
@IkesT
Thanks for your further contribution to the OP's discussion. Sadly, it's certainly not the expected answer or dodge I should have expected from a member here using "Ikes" in their handle.
Unless that coin has been previously documented somewhere as a new discovery, I doubt PCGS will slab it as such.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
True. It's also reasonable to assume that Married2Coins and his buddy have a similar level of numismatic ability, which means that the "new discovery" is probably just nothing.
Hey I am a rookie! Especially with ikes! I mostly search Lincoln cents and quarters. That's why I decided to post in here to get an opinion from someone with more experience! I really think that those eagles are different in how they approach the moon, flat step like appearance on the wing on the viewers left side, how the talon on the viewers left is holding the branch and difference in thickness of the eagles body.
Here is the obverse pictures of the 72d ikes. I forgot to post these earlier. The ike on the left is the coin that I think has a different eagle then flatter type 1 eagle on the other coin. The coin on the left weighs 22.38. It has a smaller rim and the reeded edge seems different compared to the other one.
I'm not sure if that's some kind of mint damage that has caused the rim to look like this or if this can happen on ikes?
Ike on the left has the eagle that I think is different from the flatter type 1 eagle. It has a smaller rim then the other ike.
coin on the top is the ike with the smaller rim.
coin on the left is the ike with the smaller rim.
@IkesT,
Sadly you are still avoiding a simple yes or no question and making a mockery of this forum. Do you see a difference in the two images. If you need help, I'll point out the easy places and it is not the yellow circle. I hope you are not a member of the IKE GROUP as that would not reflect well on them.
@OAKSTAR,
Apparently they have already confirmed a different Ike for him before. I saw it in the slab. Furthermore, It is a shame that a top TPGS will not slab naked eye "discovery coins" in the past without having a second example!
@IkesT wrote: "It's also reasonable to assume that Married2Coins and his buddy have a similar level of numismatic ability, which means that the "new discovery" is probably just nothing."
Most discoveries by new collectors do turn out to be nothing- it is part of learning. However, I have observed that it is mainly the young and inexperienced or the know-it-all "experts" that make assumptions about coins and the people who own them. Now, I understand that you are not obligated to reply and you can just post more cartoons to make fun of us but please answer my question so we can discuss the OP's coin further. Some here must value your opinion. That's why I ask my question. I should think that generally a die used in Denver would be from the same source as one used at the other Mints. Only the Mint mark would be added.
You'll learn to humor "experts." They tend to know so much that they no longer see what's in front of their eyes or think outside the box. IMO, you have two MS coins from the Denver Mint that are different as night and day. I suggest you post your question on other forums where you will probably be treated with respect rather than cartoons. Please let me know which ones you choose.
PS The lighting and strength of strike can make two coins from the same batch appear different but the differences in the reverse design that I see suggests that is not the case here.
@Married2Coins
Thanks for you help! I did post in the ikegroup forum back on Nov. 16 but never heard back from anyone. I will continue working on trying to learn more about the different eagle on these ikes. I thought I put some good pictures up that I think clearly shows 2 eagles with different features on both the 72D's and the 71s rev. type 1's. I let you know what I find out! Thanks again!
@IkesT
Thanks for taking a look! On PCGS website there are 3 1971-s Reverse type 1 DCAM ikes. One of those eagles seems very different then the other 2 eagles. I don't think it's the lighting that is causing that eagle to look different. From my experience searching Lincoln cents and quarters my suspicion is that maybe it's a different reverse design? If you get a chance, please take a look at those 3 eagles on PCGS website. The eagle that looks different is what I think is on the 72D.
1) The 1971-S proof with Type 1 reverse coins imaged in the OP are both Type 1 reverses. Keep in mind that there are only ~14 known examples of 1971-S proof Type 1 reverse. They were likely test strikes or presentation pieces struck well before the mint went into production with the the predominant 1971-S proof with Type 2 reverse. Such is not the case with the 1972-D Ikes.
2) Take care comparing subtleties on Ike proofs, given different strikes (and possibly striking pressure in the 71-S proof Type 1 reverse coin), die treatments, and die stage.
3) The two 1972-D Ike depicted in the OP are both Type 1 reverses, as were every other 1972-D Ike produced.
4) While the dies may be different for the two depicted 1972-D Ikes, the dies are not likely from differing upline designs (working hubs / master die).
5) one of the two 1972-D Ikes depicted is from clashed dies.
6) Otherwise, nothing new here.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@SPalladino Thanks for your serious post! My Ike book says all 1972-D are type . Your number 4 statement needs to be answered: "4) While the dies may be [ARE] different for the two depicted 1972-D Ikes, the dies are not likely from differing upline designs (working hubs / master die). Perhaps there are sub-types to be discovered with further research rather than posting cartoons defending the status quo. I cannot believe members of the IKE Group were not interested. Look at the differene detail in the crater below the wing tips.
Bottom line, me and the OP are nuts or the OP is on to something. Any true numismatist should wish to know.
No argument that the coins appear different. However, are they different because the dies bear different design characteristics, or because the coins are different in die state and strike? Certainly worth investigation. And by investigation, I mean close examination by an Ike expert, not photographic examination. That said, I am skeptical that, based on the photos, and keeping in mind die state and strike, that the two coins come from different die designs.
Yes, perhaps.
"Ike Group members" are interested. "Ike Group members" have visited this post out of interest. However, "Ike Group members" are skeptical, and unwilling to make a call based on photographs. "Ike Group members" would be happy to examine the coin in hand, or see the outcome of having the coins examined by an expert.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@SPalladino Steve, your efforts are appreciated; unfortunately, the person you are engaging with is a well-known bad actor on the Forum. It's not worth your time. The OP could have benefited from the expert knowledge on this Forum, but instead has hitched his wagon to said bad actor. Too bad.
There does appear to be differences. One possibility may be re-engraving some lines and areas that may have deteriorated on the original die... for instance the lines on the wings, etc. Even if it is re-engraving... would be an interesting variety. But I agree with the post above... hard to really make a call based on photos.
No doubt there are more Ike varieties waiting to be found.
@SPalladino Hi Steve thanks for taking a look! I admit it is difficult taking good pictures of coins and I have tried my best using my iphone, a small adjustable stand and various lights! I do appreciate all the feedback and help with this ike! I did want to post a couple pictures to go with some of the pictures I had posted earlier.
I thought these images would go good with the pictures I had posted earlier. In my opinion the eagle's that are on the left have features that are similar to each other. The flat step like wing, talon's, earth and also the branch as it exits the talon heading towards the wing tip.
The 72d I've been interested in does have a lot of die scratches throughout the coin. Especially around the earth. However, there are also straight fine lines running across the eagle and moon. I'm assuming some kind of polishing tool but these lines are very straight and are mostly on the eagle and moon. They seem to end just to the right of the eagle.
If I were to have the coin examined how could I go about finding someone to check it out? Thanks again for everyone's help and opinions!
These are the talons of the 72d I've been interested in. They seem different compared to other eagles.
These are the talons from the 72d comparison coin thats on the right in the images I've posted
I promise no more pictures!
Thanks again for everyone's help and opinions!
1) Send to CONECA, or Dr Wiles (if accepting), or a senior Ike Group member.
2) don't compare to 1971-S proofs with Type 1 reverse for reasons that I mentioned.
3) both coins are struck from clashed dies, which may be the line to which you refer. And, the clashes and subsequent die treatments may alter the coins' design. Lastly, evaluate each coin for relative die state, as a coin's design features may be more to less apparent with varying die state.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Not an Ike guy but I do like the pictures shown.
Super photography.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I'll bet one of the members already has one like the OP's coin in their collection. They just never noticed. There are examples of overlooked design changes in every coin series that eventually got published. For example, all no-rays shield nickels looked the same to me - and then numismatists published books noting the different reverses. Breen may have been the first to list business strike quarters made with retired proof dies. IMO, Ike and Susie dollars have not been studied enough in detail yet.
The only worthless (bad?) poster in this discussion is one who will not answer a direct question. The designs are different. You don't need to hold the coin to see it. So rather than trying to get off topic and smear me for my opinion that agrees with the OP, why not man up and engage. I'll ask you again, do you see the difference in the design and relief of the crater under the eagle's wing? Crickets?
If your eyes weren't so tired, you would have read through the entire thread and seen that I had fully answered your question well before you asked it.
Let me be clear: I am not interested in having a discussion with you. None of my comments are directed at you. The cartoons are not making fun of you. They are all posted as a public service to let other Forum members know that you and this topic are not serious and not worthy of their time. It would be a shame for you to trick any other well-intentioned members into wasting their time on this.
Rumor has it that you are an alt of banned member @Realone , in which case you should not even be here according to the rules of the Forum.
Thank you for the contradiction and the clarification. I'll go back and see if you stated that the design was different. I understand English very well and did not see it. Unfortunately, a simple "yes, I see they are different" would have worked much better.
You seem to have a grudge with this realtone guy. Is that the Alan you accuse me of being? Just because someone challenges you for ducking a direct question is no reason to go into the fantasy world. Apparently, you and your friends are posting private messages to stir up your fantasy. You an your pals can believe anything you wish. I'll be the "Alen" or "Realtone" in your head. I'm sticking to coins and not personalities and I wish you would do the same. This discussion about a possible new discovery is too good to get closed by the moderator.