@Rick5280 said: @DCW
"According to White, four obverse and four reverse dies bearing the 230 privy mark were used to strike the privy-marked gold pieces. The average die life for the obverse dies was 118 and for the reverse, 203 coins."
Great. But his numbers don't add up. Plus, after the quote he gave Coin World regarding mintage of the non-privys, with no follow-up explanation or correction, "according to White" means absolutely nothing to me right now.
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
The story on the First Strike Die Set are really incredible. Who would have thought they would have struck only 1 coin with this die pair?
I wonder if the price will go up with more recognition of this?
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
The story on the First Strike Die Set are really incredible. Who would have thought they would have struck only 1 coin with this die pair?
I wonder if the price will go up with more recognition of this?
I'm pretty sure that die pair was used to strike all of the privy coins. The first coin was part of those 250 coins.
@Rick5280 said: @DCW
"According to White, four obverse and four reverse dies bearing the 230 privy mark were used to strike the privy-marked gold pieces. The average die life for the obverse dies was 118 and for the reverse, 203 coins."
This article also indicates that 1 die set was used to strike only the first coin!
Paul Gilkes said:
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
Stack's doesn't provide as much detail on the dies:
Stack's Bowers said:
Also included with this coin are the canceled obverse and reverse dies used to strike these inspiring pieces. The dies are housed in a custom-made box and provide an unprecedented glimpse into the Mint's state of the art production process.
Below is the full section on striking details with quotes from U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White.
Paul Gilkes said:
Striking details
The Flowing Hair, High Relief gold dollars were struck at the West Point Mint between Aug. 29, 2024 and Oct. 23, 2024, according to U.S. Mint officials.
The coin’s edge exhibits the denomination incused as HUNDRED CENTS ONE DOLLAR OR UNIT along with 13 six-pointed stars.
The collar die used to execute the gold dollar’s edge device exhibits incuse lettering that upon striking results in the edge lettering appearing raised on the finished coin.
The gold coins were struck on a GMP 360 coinage press made by Gräbener Pressensysteme GmbH & Co. KG, with the obverse and reverse dies oriented vertically. The obverse die served as the upper hammer die with the reverse die as the lower anvil die.
The planchets received three strikes from the dies exerting 100 to 110 metric tons per strike.
According to White, four obverse and four reverse dies bearing the 230 privy mark were used to strike the privy-marked gold pieces. The average die life for the obverse dies was 118 and for the reverse, 203 coins.
For the non-privy mark gold coins, 34 obverse dies and 31 reverse dies were used, with the average die life for the obverse at 366 coins and the reverse dies at 372 coins before retirement. Five edge collar dies were employed overall for the gold dollar output, with the average life per collar die at 2,525 coins.
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
Okay. At least this clearly explains why only one die set is being offered.
They apparently retired the dies far earlier than usual with a view towards producing more 70s than usual for the auction. But only created one special lot by only selling off one die pair. And they made that a very special die pair indeed by only using it for the single coin it is being sold with.
Whatever. Way beyond my ability to have any interest, other than as a museum curiosity.
@FlyingAl @Byers what do you think of my zoomed TV photos and my opinions on them?.... @Zoins said,
"Here's the full section on striking details with quotes from U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White. Is the way to interpret the last sentence, "White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.", that this die set struck only this 1 coin?"
Yes, that's how I interpret it...
But I beg to differ(here I go again!), until PCGS/SBG posts the "real TV image" of coin #1. And that's just crazy me(so far, we'll see about later when a variety "in RED" is officially attributed to approx 40 coins)..
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
I think if it ended today, the price would reflect that, Mike.
This is a lot of money for something minted last month.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
I think if it ended today, the price would reflect that, Mike.
This is a lot of money for something minted last month.
The amount seems reasonable given that Heritage sold a single Dickeson copy die for over $100k and there are 2 US Mint dies included here. Although these dies are cancelled, they are from the US Mint and for a classic US Mint design.
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
I think if it ended today, the price would reflect that, Mike.
This is a lot of money for something minted last month.
The amount seems reasonable given that Heritage sold a Dickeson copy die for over $100k and there are 2 US Mint dies included here. Although these dies are cancelled, it is for a classic US Mint design.
IMHO, these (2) U.S. Mint dies are considerably more valuable than the six- figure Dickeson die which is a copy die.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@MilesWaits said:
Thanks for the Striking Details!
White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.
The first coin struck, with its own set of dies included, is a numismatic first and the final price will reflect the uniqueness of this special lot in SB.
I think if it ended today, the price would reflect that, Mike.
This is a lot of money for something minted last month.
The amount seems reasonable given that Heritage sold a Dickeson copy die for over $100k and there are 2 US Mint dies included here. Although these dies are cancelled, it is for a classic US Mint design.
IMHO, these (2) U.S. Mint dies are considerably more valuable than the six- figure Dickeson die which is a copy die.
I agree. The copy die also has a significantly different design from the original and was used for many restrikes over the years.
I'm excited to see where these US Mint dies end up.
That is really interesting, and apologies to @dcarr for not catching that possible explanation earlier in the thread. I don't think there is an example of cancellation like this documented before?
It's interesting that Stacks notes: "All images, except for the PCGS holdered images and PCGS TrueView images, are for illustrative purposes only and do not depict the exact coin being offered'
It would be amusing if someone won this and ended up with a typical melted-face US mint coin die.
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
Why would it matter when the restrike was made - I realize the sooner and it would still be fresh on peoples mind
How many strikes would be possible before spoiling the dies? I realize striking pressure and metal composition effects this.
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
Why would it matter when the restrike was made - I realize the sooner and it would still be fresh on peoples mind
It's just interesting to have a restrike of a coin made in the same year the original coin was struck, especially if you can provide some indicator of the year that it was struck in. It makes it rare as well as there are likely only so many restrikes you can do in the remaining part of 2024.
@davewesen said:
How many strikes would be possible before spoiling the dies? I realize striking pressure and metal composition effects this.
According to the Mint, they only struck one piece with the die. Earlier in the thread, someone quoting the Mint using the other dies for something like 238 pieces, so that it is an indicator (at least for gold.) I don't know if the laser X weakens the face of the die, though.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
Maybe the forum could form some buyers' consortium to purchase lot 1? 25 people kick in 10 grand or so? Rotate ownership of the coin, and the die heads off to Moonight Mint for restrikes and then to the Smithsonian for posterity.
Joking of course. But this type of thing has been done before!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
Maybe the forum could form some buyers' consortium to purchase lot 1? 25 people kick in 10 grand or so? Rotate ownership of the coin, and the die heads off to Moonight Mint for restrikes and then to the Smithsonian for posterity.
Joking of course. But this type of thing has been done before!
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Dan, are you surprised how shallow the Xs are cut into the face of the dies? The design elements show clearly through the milled Xs. Is that normal? I would assume they would mill deeper to avoid the dies being refinished and reused.
@Zoins said:
The other way to think about the price is that it's currently under 2 BTC
God if I only had that Bitcoin I sent that TV preacher. $250K is not what it was 5 years ago. Asset classes moved up with the inflation and it just is not really as much as our gut says. My first home was $177K and it is worth over $800 grand now. My current home has tripled in value in 10 years. If you view this as an asset class it is not that bad at $250K.
@dcarr said:
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Dan, are you surprised how shallow the Xs are cut into the face of the dies? The design elements show clearly through the milled Xs. Is that normal? I would assume they would mill deeper to avoid the dies being refinished and reused.
Laser-engraved, not milled. The laser basically cuts equally into the surface, so the original surface contours are maintained within the X.
Presumably this is the first time this process has been used on cancelled dies that have been sold to the public.
Comments
Great. But his numbers don't add up. Plus, after the quote he gave Coin World regarding mintage of the non-privys, with no follow-up explanation or correction, "according to White" means absolutely nothing to me right now.
The story on the First Strike Die Set are really incredible. Who would have thought they would have struck only 1 coin with this die pair?
I wonder if the price will go up with more recognition of this?
I'm pretty sure that die pair was used to strike all of the privy coins. The first coin was part of those 250 coins.
Coin Photographer.
Okay. At least this clearly explains why only one die set is being offered.
They apparently retired the dies far earlier than usual with a view towards producing more 70s than usual for the auction. But only created one special lot by only selling off one die pair. And they made that a very special die pair indeed by only using it for the single coin it is being sold with.
Whatever. Way beyond my ability to have any interest, other than as a museum curiosity.
@FlyingAl
@Byers what do you think of my zoomed TV photos and my opinions on them?....
@Zoins said,
"Here's the full section on striking details with quotes from U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White. Is the way to interpret the last sentence, "White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set.", that this die set struck only this 1 coin?"
Yes, that's how I interpret it...
But I beg to differ(here I go again!), until PCGS/SBG posts the "real TV image" of coin #1. And that's just crazy me(so far, we'll see about later when a variety "in RED" is officially attributed to approx 40 coins)..
"Published TV" Coin 1 below...
"Published TV" Coin 28 below...
"Published TV" Coin 54 below...
I think if it ended today, the price would reflect that, Mike.
This is a lot of money for something minted last month.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The amount seems reasonable given that Heritage sold a single Dickeson copy die for over $100k and there are 2 US Mint dies included here. Although these dies are cancelled, they are from the US Mint and for a classic US Mint design.
The other way to think about the price is that it's currently under 2 BTC
IMHO, these (2) U.S. Mint dies are considerably more valuable than the six- figure Dickeson die which is a copy die.
I agree. The copy die also has a significantly different design from the original and was used for many restrikes over the years.
I'm excited to see where these US Mint dies end up.
Look at the photos of the dies. Isn’t that X just photoshopped? Why would there be die detail under the X?
Get with the program - it was canceled with a laser.
See this post from @dcarr for more info:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13832628/#Comment_13832628
Or see my post three days before that one, where I suggested it was laser cut.
That is really interesting, and apologies to @dcarr for not catching that possible explanation earlier in the thread. I don't think there is an example of cancellation like this documented before?
It's interesting that Stacks notes: "All images, except for the PCGS holdered images and PCGS TrueView images, are for illustrative purposes only and do not depict the exact coin being offered'
It would be amusing if someone won this and ended up with a typical melted-face US mint coin die.
Sorry about that! Here's a link to your post
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13831332/#Comment_13831332
Probably not for Stack's!
Due to the (likely) high price, I won't be bidding on them.
But if the winner/owner wants to put the dies to use (in my Denver Mint surplus press), I'm sure that could be arranged
Most of my die fixtures are for US Mint style shanks, which these die have. So they would bolt right in.
Great to know Dan!
I hope the dies can make a visit to the Moonlight Mint before the end of 2024!
It's also worth noting that the US Mint press for these and Dan's former US Mint press are from the same manufacturer, Gräbener, which would add to history of these.
@dcarr
What do you think the market demand would be for canceled die gold?
10. 100’s or 1000’s. Just wondering
I also know price would matter.
Martin
Why would it matter when the restrike was made - I realize the sooner and it would still be fresh on peoples mind
How many strikes would be possible before spoiling the dies? I realize striking pressure and metal composition effects this.
It's just interesting to have a restrike of a coin made in the same year the original coin was struck, especially if you can provide some indicator of the year that it was struck in. It makes it rare as well as there are likely only so many restrikes you can do in the remaining part of 2024.
According to the Mint, they only struck one piece with the die. Earlier in the thread, someone quoting the Mint using the other dies for something like 238 pieces, so that it is an indicator (at least for gold.) I don't know if the laser X weakens the face of the die, though.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Maybe the forum could form some buyers' consortium to purchase lot 1? 25 people kick in 10 grand or so? Rotate ownership of the coin, and the die heads off to Moonight Mint for restrikes and then to the Smithsonian for posterity.
Joking of course. But this type of thing has been done before!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Very interesting! When has this been done before?
Dan, are you surprised how shallow the Xs are cut into the face of the dies? The design elements show clearly through the milled Xs. Is that normal? I would assume they would mill deeper to avoid the dies being refinished and reused.
God if I only had that Bitcoin I sent that TV preacher.
$250K is not what it was 5 years ago. Asset classes moved up with the inflation and it just is not really as much as our gut says. My first home was $177K and it is worth over $800 grand now. My current home has tripled in value in 10 years. If you view this as an asset class it is not that bad at $250K.
Laser-engraved, not milled. The laser basically cuts equally into the surface, so the original surface contours are maintained within the X.
Presumably this is the first time this process has been used on cancelled dies that have been sold to the public.