Stacks selling ALL of the gold 230 PRIVEY coins
raycyca
Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭
I just discovered today that Stacks is selling EVERY single gold privy coin made by the US Mint. If so, that means the general population, like us, had a ZERO chance to obtain one during a "lottery" or other such chance of winning the golden ticket. Is this legal? Does this surprise you? No more "lotteries" for me when the game is rigged by the US Mint.
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
2
Comments
Yep, that’s what I heard too
Mr_Spud
There is a long, ongoing thread about these coins and their distribution below-
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1108681/230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-high-relief-gold-coin-24yg/p1
A post on November 6, just over a week before the coins were sold, theorized that there might be 230 privy marked coins that would be auctioned off by the US Mint. The next day, November 7, the US Mint press release announced and confirmed on its website that the 230 privy marked coins would be auctioned off. So, while it might be disappointing, the US Mint kept folks in the loop prior to the sale of the coins.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
weird for sure, but so are most things. lemonade can be enjoyed while you bid I suppose
The auction is fair & square imo.
They might think it’s more fair than listing on their site for 1 minute sell outs, as has happened in the past.
Using Stacks will prevent many people from being left out due to website glitches.
Not to mention...
No Big Boys, ABBP, Advanced this, First that Bulksters grabbing their cut before the public does...Just the highest bidder or group. Completely fair.
Yes, a few of those Bulksters will get some, but many collectors from the US, Asia, and the SE Persian Gulf and elsewhere will be competing for these beauties.
230 pcs is not that many. Prices are going to go through the roof!
Why do you prefer a lottery that you can lose rather than being able to bid and fairly buy one at market price? The Mint should not be running lotteries.
Sorry, but your complaint is unreasonable.
The mint has a legal duty to ensure that the general fund does not pay the costs of producing numismatic and collectible coins.
A rare variety such as the privy mark will almost certainly sell for additional money once it reaches the final market.
A random chance, such as the silver medal, transferred the additional value to the winners of the lottery. An auction transfers the additional value to the mint's numismatic and collectible coin production fund.
Almost certainly several major auction houses were approached and the one who offered the mint the best deal was S-B.
Net-Net, by going the auction route, the mint can reduce the purchase price of other numismatic and collectible coins, perhaps even those desired by and affordable to the general public.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I put an early bid on one of these beauties knowing I will be outbid. I was a bit surprised there is no buyer's fee. It appears your bid is what you pay plus shipping.
Will the early ones in the auction sell for more or less than the middle ones or last ones? I don't understand the math and psychology.
That is an interesting question; should make the auction a really fun watch!
Great way to sell them. Just like when Stacks auctioned off the Last and First 2021 Type 1 and Type 2 ASE's and AGE's.
Let everyone have a shot at them.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Is it true that everyone has a shot at them. I dont think so- only those in the coin collecting community know Stacks and have a Stacks account to bid and only those that can afford to bid more than others will win the coins. So I dont think its fair for the Mint to auction these off.
Yes just like they should have offered EVERYONE a chance to buy/bid on the whole lot. Not many could afford them, but at least there is a chance. Should the mint reveal the purchase price?
Two of my customers are having me bid on a 70 for each of them. I told them, be prepared to pay 20k or more. some of the 69's might go for a bit less. It should be some strong intrest. I personally don't care about modern stuff too much, only modern I have is the 1995-w eagle , would get a v75 gold if one ever came in store.
I herd a rumor, (again a rumor) that one of the high powered outfit's is going to try and buy a lot of them
The first struck now at $170K and you get the cancelled dies
Getting a Stacks account is free, online, and self-service, like getting a US Mint account. The US Mint is announcing this so people that follow them will know.
As for affordability, that is an issue, but there is a market price for them established quickly and the previous approach of having everyone bid furiously for 1 minute seemed more like a lottery (chance) to me.
Probably a good starting point for the gold. I expect they will go well north of $20,000. Just saw the Silver privy example for $13,500 in MS70 CACG.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
SB "revealed" the winning bids on the last Mint auction (i.e., American Eagle At Dusk and At Dawn 35th Anniversary).
Link: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-Y41C1/the-summer-2022-global-showcase-auction-session-15-united-states-mint-american-eagle-at-dusk-and-at-dawn-35th-anniversary-auction-lots-1-700
Best GUESS is that they will do the same thing this time around.
FWIW, you can review the CURRENT bids for the ongoing auction here: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-1EVV9W/december-2024-historic-privy-mark-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-high-relief-gold-coins-on-behalf-of-the-united-states-mint-lots-11001-11230
Not sure where you came up with that - std terms and conditions apply
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
That is correct. I called stacks myself when I heard on behalf of my customers asking, they are waiving the buyers premium on this auction. (they said it has something to do with being US MInts products) Bid plus shipping is all you pay.
Only someone with a Mint account could buy them from the Mint. Is that also unfair? And if you have a Mint account, they did announce the auction.
It is free and easy to create a Stacks" account.
That is the standard terms, not the terms of this auction. They have BP free precious metal auctions every week.
Source: https://stacksbowers.com/sbpressreleases/the-united-states-mint-selects-stacks-bowers-galleries-to-sell-privy-mark-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-high-relief-gold-coins/
It would be helpful and less confusing if you’d quote the post to which you’re replying, especially if it’s not the one directly above yours. In this case you replied “That is correct” right after a post that was in fact, incorrect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How much of the public knows the US Mint compared to Stacks. Everyone on the PCGS message boards know Stacks and the Mint. I am sure that most that purchase mint products from the mint don't all know Stacks. I love Stacks but they aren't as known to the public that purchases coins from the mint as the US mint.
I can understand zero buyers premium for this event. After all, isn’t Stacks getting all 230 privy marked gold coins for $3650 ? Who needs a buyers premium. They’re making bank.
Thanks to @jdimmick @MetroD @jmlanzaf for confirming my comment. Just for the record, when I entered/confirmed the bid SB did not add the buyer's fee. Whether it be GC, HA or SB the auction house will always make you aware of the buyer's fee before confirming your bid. Since I indicated I placed a bid, I assumed it would be obvious that it was not a wild guess but rather based on a confirmed experience.
Stack's doesn't own the coins, the US Mint is consigning them to Stack's.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I bid 5 of them just for the fun of it. Outbid on two and high on three. It will be interesting to see if I win any.
You had me right up to the "net-net" point. The Mint has been aggressively raising the price of everything it sells to maximize its profits over the past few years.
Which is fine, but let's not pretend, even for a second, that the money raised by creating an artificial rarity and selling it to the highest bidder is going to be used, even a little bit, to reduce the purchase price of anything. Because it won't.
The Mint charges what the market will bear for everything it sells, other than when it runs lotteries to reward bulk purchasers, with a few scraps left for the masses. The proceeds from this auction are not going to be used to reduce the obnoxious premiums on anything else it sells. They will only be used to further stuff its pockets.
Which, again, is fine, because no one is forced to participate, and the Mint should be allowed to monetize anything it can. Including 230 oh so special FH gold coins. But let's not pretend this is a charity auction to reduce the premiums on next year's precious metal numismatic offerings.
Net-net, the Mint wins, a select few well heeled collectors get something special for their collections, and the rest of us are just left on the outside looking in. Nothing more. Nothing less.
2020 v75 gold 1oz, 1945 pop selling for $20k in 70. Just sold my last one. Don’t these have a mintage of 17,500?
Facts not in evidence
https://www.usmint.gov/content/dam/usmint/reports/2023-Annual-Report.pdf
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
THAT is a very dangerous game to play. Being the high bid at a public auction that is receiving very wide exposure in the international numismatic community, with the goal of cornering a market to try to make money down the road is VERY risky.
Each and every lot will be fully valued at hammer time. Tying up all that capital in the hope of hyping them up from there seems like a good way to lose a lot of money, given how limited the market for these will be upfront, and the marketing costs involved in trying to sell them for more in the future.
If someone gobbles a bunch up at auction, it's just difficult to imagine who they are going to be selling to later at a profit, given they are going to be paying full, exorbitant retail at auction. Not to mention, once the hype and excitement dies down, gravity generally pulls offerings like this lower over time.
Do you think GSA put out bids to various auction houses assuring the "best deal" for American taxpayers?
"2020 v75 gold 1oz, 1945 pop selling for $20k in 70. Just sold my last one. Don’t these have a mintage of 17,500?"
230 pcs is the mintage.
Nope. They are making whatever they negotiated with the Mint as a commission for handling and marketing the sale. Why on earth would the Mint just give all this money to a private enterprise?
This is no different than any other consignment to any other auction house.
Not sure what to make of that, other than to suggest people take a college class in cost accounting, and try to obtain an understanding of government accounting, before believing that the numismatic program that literally moves millions of units of product per year at huge premiums to the intrinsic value of their precious or base metal content actually loses $140+ million per year.
They are allocating all kinds of inflated fixed costs before coming up with that number, and those costs would have to be allocated elsewhere if the numismatic sales program just disappeared. As a result, they really should not be considered when evaluating the profitability of any particular business segment.
They are likely actually making hundreds of millions of dollars, on a variable cost basis, on silver coins they sell for around $100 and gold coins they sell for $3600. Let alone all the base metal coins they sell for far above face value, which already generates huge profits due to seigniorage.
Now you're making up accounting numbers.
But if you have a Mint account, you also know about the Stack's auction.
Like all of you, I'm thankful for another FH thread...
Incredibly exciting!
Not "making up." More like speculating. In all fairness, I did say "likely actually making," not "I know for a fact they are making." 😀
If the Mint is not making hundreds of millions of dollars selling product competing mints sell profitably at a fraction of the Mint's volume, at comparable pricing, something is very wrong.
Of course, I don't have access to actual numbers. But I do have some training in cost accounting, and have been a US citizen long enough to be well aware of the waste and bloat in the federal government.
Putting them together causes me to question an income statement showing the Mint losing $140 million and $200 million on its numismatic program during the last 2 reporting years.
Heck, 75K doesn't even mean 75K. You think I believe they are losing this kind of money on the program, and keep doing out anyway?
I am quite certain reported losses are the result of arcane fixed cost allocation rules, and not the Mint being unable to make a profit selling hundreds of thousands of silver rounds at 3x spot, tens of thousands of gold at a $1,000 premium to spot, and hundreds of thousands of base metal collector coins at multiples of face value. Every other world mint that has a numismatic program makes money selling similar product at similar markups, with a tiny fraction of the sales volume.
As I said before, whatever fixed costs are allocated to numismatics will have to go somewhere if there are no numismatics, so no one making a business decision would consider them when deciding whether or not a numismatic program is profitable. We shouldn't either.
Otherwise, the Mint really should shut down the numismatic program. And maybe Elon and Vivek will look at that income statement and do just that. Won't do anything to address bloated fixed costs, but will save the Treasury a reported $140+ million loss next year, right?
If I am reading the accounting document correctly, it states that the US Mint made a profit of nearly $140 million, not a loss.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Nice catch!! I missed that, and focused on the parentheses. And, this is with allocations of bloated overhead.
So, okay, @BStrauss3's point is moot, and we are back to the Mint just maximizing profits and not running charity auctions to reduce premiums in the future. WE are going to reduce premiums in the future by rejecting them when they get out of hand, as happened this year with the Morgan and Peace dollars.
The previously posted screenshot was a "statement of net cost" (i.e., p. 39 in 2023 Annual Report).
FWIW, I agree with your interpretation (i.e., it is a net revenue).
The 'net income' for "numismatic" products, before 'protection expenses', can be found on p. 23.
Source: https://www.usmint.gov/content/dam/usmint/reports/2023-Annual-Report.pdf
A bit curious significance of 230 years vs 200, 225 or 250?
The v75 made sense and I’ll assume there will be a v100.
230 sounds like someone forgot 225 and they don’t want to wait to 250?
The only significance is that lots of things are going to be released in 2026 to coincide with the nation's 250th anniversary. Since it took 7 years for the Revolutionary War to be won, another 9 years to establish the Mint, and another 2 years for the first silver dollar to be produced, that brings us to 1794.
They could have waited until 2026 to commemorate it along with everything else they are going to be releasing that year, but they chose to get a 2 year head start. 230 is not as round as 225, but it's where we are.
The alternative would have been the 232nd anniversary, coinciding with the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 2026, but they already have many other releases lined up for then, and this is a chance to squeeze one more in now.
Ok I have a question. If say Dan Carr ends up with those canceled dies could he legally strike up some?
Martin
I would imagine he could since they are not actually legal tender coins?