Are dipped coins acceptable?

DisneyFan

There were a lot of interesting comments made in the original survey. In hopes of adding clarity, here is an restated survey. Assume that the coin has been gently dipped.

oreville

No dipped coin is acceptable

I tried to vote but it would not accept my vote? I did not pick “no dipping is acceptable..”.”

I wanted to vote for gently dipped with slightly toning over time. ,

oldabeintx

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

I only get one choice? I suspect many early coins have been dipped and retoned attractively, and more modern coins are fine if not toned. Geez.

DoubleEagle59

Of course dipping is acceptable.

Most brilliant white coins have been dipped (I'd say if they are pre-1940's).

US TPG's reward dipping or perhaps worded differently, they reward a brilliant white, full luster coin over one that is toned, hence, for the educated and wise collector, the coin will be dipped (for the better grade).

oldabeintx

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

@DoubleEagle59 said:
Of course dipping is acceptable.

Most brilliant white coins have been dipped (I'd say if they are pre-1940's).

US TPG's reward dipping or perhaps worded differently, they reward a brilliant white, full luster coin over one that is toned, hence, for the educated and wise collector, the coin will be dipped (for the better grade).

What???

Baylor8670

If only there was an easy way to remove surface contaminants and make coins look better without causing any direct changes to the metal...

hummingbird_coins

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

@Baylor8670 said:
If only there was an easy way to remove surface contaminants and make coins look better without causing any direct changes to the metal...

Acetone does just that.

DoubleEagle59

@oldabeintx said:

@DoubleEagle59 said:
Of course dipping is acceptable.

Most brilliant white coins have been dipped (I'd say if they are pre-1940's).

US TPG's reward dipping or perhaps worded differently, they reward a brilliant white, full luster coin over one that is toned, hence, for the educated and wise collector, the coin will be dipped (for the better grade).

What???

I've said this before...........

I'm 65 and I can remember going to major coin shows in the 70's (in Toronto Canada) and brilliant white coins were in fashion and toned coins were not.

In the whole coin room, you couldn't find a toned coin in any of the dealer's showcases.

If you believe a dipped coin is cleaning, then I would say at least half of all graded brilliant white coins should be bodybagged as 'details, cleaning'

hummingbird_coins

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

Significantly retoned is also ok as long as it looks natural

Mr_Spud

It’s really about eye appeal and stability. If a coin looks great and isn’t unstable, then it’s ok. If it looks artificial and cartoonish it’s a problem coin. If it has terminal toning it’s not ok. If it looks over dipped and there’s no skin or luster left on a high grade coin it’s a problem coin. If it’s an old coin that looks blast white, you have to worry that it might turn bad from improper dipping where residual dip can make it look bad later. So, look for coins that weren’t recently slabbed if you want to play it safe.

johnny9434

No dipped coin is acceptable

@oreville said:
I tried to vote but it would nit acceot my vote? I did not pick “no dipping is acceptable..”.”,

It's there 😉

Mr_Spud

Here’s an actual example of a mistake I made recently by not looking at the auction picture close enough. It’s a dipped coin where they left residue on the coin and got it slabbed and it went bad in the holder. This kind of dipped coin is not ok. I got excited and bought it on impulse for 1/2 of its usual price. I’ve been keeping my eye out for one of these for years. I have a small collection of Latvian and Austrian Niobium/silver bimetallic coins where they anodyne the niobium to different colors. Cool stuff, I buy anodized Niobium Jewelry for Mrs_Spud all the time too because we both like how Niobium looks.

But anyway, you can see the dip residue gone bad on the upper right in the silver portion of the coin. I haven’t made this kind of mistake in years. It’s obvious it went bad in the holder, never would have got a 67 with that. It’s my fault though, I should have looked better, it’s plainly visible, and also explains why it was being sold for 1/2 the normal price for these. But it makes a great example of a dipped coin that’s not acceptable

Cougar1978

A gently dipped coin

Yes dipping can improvetarnished (PV Haze) coins - especially if coin comes out brilliant, super PQ. Act early or they dullish junk forever.

winesteven

A gently dipped coin

I’m part of the large but minority of collectors who prefer (mainly for 20th Century Silver) highly lustrous blast white coins. I know this minority is large due to the competition shown in auctions. Yes, “very attractively” toned coins attract even more competition, but toned “plain, dull” coins with not a lot of luster - not so much!

I prefer the look of those that appear to have “just came off the press”, looking the way their designer envisioned they would look! I also insist for my collection that each of these coins merit CAC stickers! Every one of mine eligible for a sticker has one!

Steve

WiscKau

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

Gently dipped and retoned over time:

Liquidated

Honestly it always bothered me to see a white early coin with a stated grade.

Personally anything Bust through Seated and white never seemed right. Around Barber and SLQ era found it acceptable.

MS66

There's a strange notion that silver tarnishes when exposed to the elements for a century or so. Well, that's not actually the strange part. The strange part is when you think this somehow doesn't apply to the 1800s coin you're looking at right now. Tarnish actually happens much faster than that, unless specific preventive measures are taken.

coastaljerseyguy

A gently dipped coin

Silver does not react/tarnish with exposure to air, it tarnishes with exposure to sulfur and other contaminants. Copper does react with the air so not sure the impacts on early 90% silver coins. GSA Carson City Morgans sat in bags for over 80 years. The majority are blast white, no one dipped them. I think there is a misconception that blast white Morgans had to be dipped. My avatar was obtained during the Treasury release in the early 60's. Came straight from the Mint bag. Only my Dad & I have ever owned it. It has never been dipped and is blast white.

winesteven

A gently dipped coin

@Liquidated said:
Honestly it always bothered me to see a white early coin with a stated grade.

Personally anything Bust through Seated and white never seemed right. Around Barber and SLQ era found it acceptable.

That exactly demonstrates that eye appeal is so subjective and personal. Here’s my Capped Bust Half. I love it, and I believe many (not most) collectors would really enjoy having this coin in their collection.

I bought it as a 64+, but liked it so much when I received it in hand, that I sent it back to PCGS via Regrade, and they upgraded it to a 65. CAC also agreed, and applied their sticker to it as a 65!

Steve

Baylor8670

@coastaljerseyguy said:
Silver does not react/tarnish with exposure to air, it tarnishes with exposure to sulfur and other contaminants. Copper does react with the air so not sure the impacts on early 90% silver coins. GSA Carson City Morgans sat in bags for over 80 years. The majority are blast white, no one dipped them. I think there is a misconception that blast white Morgans had to be dipped. My avatar was obtained during the Treasury release in the early 60's. Came straight from the Mint bag. Only my Dad & I have ever owned it. It has never been dipped and is blast white.

Silver reacts with both oxygen and sulphur (via H2S gas). Oxygen is obviously hard to avoid and trace amounts of H2S are common in the atmosphere. Temperature, humidity and other factors can affect the reaction.

DoubleEagle59

@winesteven said:

@Liquidated said:
Honestly it always bothered me to see a white early coin with a stated grade.

Personally anything Bust through Seated and white never seemed right. Around Barber and SLQ era found it acceptable.

That exactly demonstrates that eye appeal is so subjective and personal. Here’s my Capped Bust Half. I love it, and I believe many (not most) collectors would really enjoy having this coin in their collection.

I bought it as a 64+, but liked it so much when I received it in hand, that I sent it back to PCGS via Regrade, and they upgraded it to a 65. CAC also agreed, and applied their sticker to it as a 65!

Steve

That's a gorgeous half dollar.

In my opinion, I'm 100% sure that coin has been dipped (at least once) in its long past.

But that's definitely OK with me....and the market!!

winesteven

A gently dipped coin

There’s another important concept that I pointed out about a year ago or so, but it’s worth repeating:

For those that personally object to coins that have been gently and quickly dipped for the purpose of making them look “nicer” (like they originally looked), I ask the following: You cling to the concept of “Originality”, where anything done to change the surface to make it look like it originally looked (specifically gentle and quick dipping) is deemed taboo by you, yet in the fine-art collectibles world, the opposite is what knowledgeable collectors recognize is not only perfectly acceptable, but is actually preferred!!!

Right now as we read this, in the Rembrandt Museum in Amsterdam (aka the Rijksmuseum), the most famous painting there (and likely the most valuable), Rembrandt’s “The Night Watch”, is currently being restored by a team of eight restorers! How is this done? They start out by removing the varnish, like gentle dipping removes the tarnish on coins (also known as toning)! The Night Watch has been treated at least 25 times - but this latest research and restoration project is the most extensive so far.

So as I see it, if art experts readily accept this concept on super valuable paintings to make them look better, why should I feel any different when a similar concept is applied to my coins, AND where both PCGS AND CAC say my dipped 195 year old silver coin is perfectly acceptable and “solid for the grade”?

Seeing a typical “brownish or yellow” toned coin, and others saying, “Hey, but that toning proves originality!”, to me is like the story we were all told as kids, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.

Steve

jesbroken

@winesteven said:
There’s another important concept that I pointed out about a year ago or so, but it’s worth repeating:

For those that personally object to coins that have been gently and quickly dipped for the purpose of making them look “nicer” (like they originally looked), I ask the following: You cling to the concept of “Originality”, where anything done to change the surface to make it look like it originally looked (specifically gentle and quick dipping) is deemed taboo by you, yet in the fine-art collectibles world, the opposite is what knowledgeable collectors recognize is not only perfectly acceptable, but is actually preferred!!!

Right now as we read this, in the Rembrandt Museum in Amsterdam (aka the Rijksmuseum), the most famous painting there (and likely the most valuable), Rembrandt’s “The Night Watch”, is currently being restored by a team of eight restorers! How is this done? They start out by removing the varnish, like gentle dipping removes the tarnish on coins (also known as toning)! The Night Watch has been treated at least 25 times - but this latest research and restoration project is the most extensive so far.

So as I see it, if art experts readily accept this concept on super valuable paintings to make them look better, why should I feel any different when a similar concept is applied to my coins, AND where both PCGS AND CAC say my dipped 195 year old silver coin is perfectly acceptable and “solid for the grade”?

Seeing a typical “brownish or yellow” toned coin, and others saying, “Hey, but that toning proves originality!”, to me is like the story we were all told as kids, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.

Steve

Absolutely the most beautiful painting I have ever stood before. If anything could be done to restore and/or prevent damage, Yes should be done. Same is true for a most rare coin. Should it require restoration to prevent losing it to corrosion, then, again, yes it should be done. As to the rest of the OP's poll, if it looks acceptable to you, why not.
Jim

DisneyFan

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

@winesteven said:
For those that personally object to coins that have been gently and quickly dipped for the purpose of making them look “nicer” (like they originally looked), I ask the following: You cling to the concept of “Originality”, where anything done to change the surface to make it look like it originally looked (specifically gentle and quick dipping) is deemed taboo by you, yet in the fine-art collectibles world, the opposite is what knowledgeable collectors recognize is not only perfectly acceptable, but is actually preferred!!!

So as I see it, if art experts readily accept this concept on super valuable paintings to make them look better, why should I feel any different when a similar concept is applied to my coins, AND where both PCGS AND CAC say my dipped 195 year old silver coin is perfectly acceptable and “solid for the grade”?

GREAT POINT. I believe what we should object to is a coin that has been overdipped as opposed to a coin that has been restored to it's original condition. At the same time we can admire a coin that has attractively toned naturally over time.

seatedlib3991

I have spent more than 35 years collecting Seated coins. When I first started I bought coins that came with descriptions like "A strictly original piece:." It took a few years but I encountered other collectors and more information and soon learned that Strictly original coins are few and far between. Also spent a few weeks heart sick and troubled that none of my coins were strictly original.
today I am proud to own the coins I have but have learned to accept that they have been as altered by life as I have been. James

TwoSides2aCoin

Whatever one has to do to fix it in order to appreciate it is acceptable. Though, it’s not my cup of tea.
… then again, neither is this

pmh1nic

@hummingbird_coins said:

@Baylor8670 said:
If only there was an easy way to remove surface contaminants and make coins look better without causing any direct changes to the metal...

Acetone does just that.

I'm not the chemist on the forum (there are some) but based on what I've read acetone doesn't reverse the process that caused the toning. Acetone is removing the metal that has been oxidized.

Baylor8670

You are correct that acetone doesn't reverse toning.

However, acetone does not remove any metal or affect it in any way. It might remove some of the hundreds/thousands of smudged fingerprints that are on a coin though.

pcgscacgold

No dipped coin is acceptable

I would rather have an original coin. Dipping is a form of cleaning in my book. I try to find coins that the doctors have missed.

coinkat

I would rather not say, write, suggest or imply that dipping in general is acceptable. What is acceptable is a matter of personal preference influenced by what is and is not market acceptable by TPG.

pmh1nic

@Baylor8670 said:
You are correct that acetone doesn't reverse toning.

However, acetone does not remove any metal or affect it in any way. It might remove some of the hundreds/thousands of smudged fingerprints that are on a coin though.

Correct, acetone will remove surface contamination without removing metal. I should have said anything that remove toning (oxidation of silver on the surface of the coin) is removing the metal that has been oxidized. I don’t think you can reverse the toning process (could be wrong but that’s my understanding).

messydesk

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

I don't like seeing seated coins that are blast white. Just doesn't seem right.

As for lightly dipped and starting to retone, by the time a dipped coin starts to retone, you'll be able to see if there are dip residue issues that will make the coin easy to reject. One that's freshly dipped has unknown residue issues.

coastaljerseyguy

A gently dipped coin

When I first started collected, my B&M told me to never dip a coin that wasn't MS, maybe an AU if it was close to MS. Anything lower would appear too white and unnatural for a circulated coin. Advice I always adhered to and only when the toning was unsightly.

Cougar1978

A gently dipped coin

Furthermore I will dip MS where from experience will turn out lustrous, super luster. But never a circ. I like brilliant coins which are PQ, with super luster. Tarnish is something that happens over time (reaction to the atmosphere, etc) and needs to be removed - otherwise becomes darker as time goes on.

Copperindian

A gently dipped coin

Also acceptable to me is the second choice: a gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time.

stevek

A gently dipped coin

My collecting preference - Definitely prefer a coin that has never been dipped, and always willing to pay a premium price. That being said, "gently dipped" only with silver or gold.

With copper, I prefer to never buy a dipped coin at any price.

Clackamas1

A gently dipped coin that has slightly toned over time

@Baylor8670 said:

@coastaljerseyguy said:
Silver does not react/tarnish with exposure to air, it tarnishes with exposure to sulfur and other contaminants. Copper does react with the air so not sure the impacts on early 90% silver coins. GSA Carson City Morgans sat in bags for over 80 years. The majority are blast white, no one dipped them. I think there is a misconception that blast white Morgans had to be dipped. My avatar was obtained during the Treasury release in the early 60's. Came straight from the Mint bag. Only my Dad & I have ever owned it. It has never been dipped and is blast white.

Silver reacts with both oxygen and sulphur (via H2S gas). Oxygen is obviously hard to avoid and trace amounts of H2S are common in the atmosphere. Temperature, humidity and other factors can affect the reaction.

Silver reacts with a bunch of other elements as well and will give you different colors. Take an ASE and put it in your laundry room, Phosphorus and Chlorine will give you some very different toning.

coastaljerseyguy

A gently dipped coin

I keep my laundry liquids were they belong, capped . I also believe phosphates are now banned in laundry and dishwasher liquids due to their effects on ground water and runoff into rivers, etc. Plentiful in your lawn fertilizer though.

WCC

I don't have the luxury of "originality" with what I collect. I don't buy dreck but will consider any coin nice enough to me and upgrade later if it's an option. Minor problems are ok too.

privatecoin

No dipped coin is acceptable

Artificially white....

dsessom

A gently dipped coin

In my humble opinion, yes, a gently dipped coin IS completely acceptable. Why? Because I LOVE blast white Walkers, Mercury dimes, and Barber coins, and those coins, almost without exception, have been dipped at some point! There is just nearly no way to have a 100+ year old silver coin (or silver ANYTHING) without any kind of patina or toning.

Here are a few examples from my own personal collection, that I know, without doubt have been gently dipped to "reset" the patina;

As I already mentioned, I personally LOVE a blast white coin, and a vast majority of these "blazers" would not be possible without being lightly dipped at some point. So, dip away my friends, but dip with care and don't over-do it and harm the Mint luster.

Best regards,

Dwayne F. Sessom

PeakRarities

My preference is toning, but I see no issue with proper restoration if the toning is neutral or negative. “Blast white” is just a precursor to toning, which can be quite beautiful.

“Originality” is misunderstood by many. So many premium coins, plenty yielding a CAC sticker, have been commercially lightened in some point in time. Whether it’s soap and water, acetone, e zest, or whatever the heck else was used decades ago. Depending on the storage method afterwards, and the amount of time afterwards, collectors would call it “original”. Originality isn’t black and white, it’s a spectrum.

coinkat

I tend to agree that there is somewhat of a spectrum for originality with the MS range. I see characteristics of originality that are more defining in circulated grades.