Did Anyone See In-Hand The 1892 Barber Half NGC MS65/Gold CAC At Heritage?
TomB
Posts: 21,323 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is a legitimate question and I am not attempting to troll the coin, NGC, CAC, the buyer or anyone else. Heritage (HA) just sold an old holder NGC MS65/Gold CAC 1892 Barber half tonight and the coin cost the buyer $3,360 all-in, which is pretty much in-line with generic MS66 money. However, the images of the coin just didn't make it appear appealing at all. If I were the consignor and the coin actually looked appreciably better than the images I would have been livid that they didn't provide something better. Alternatively, if the images are accurate then I am left scratching my head at the grade and sticker combination.
It was lot 3213 in the November Signature Auction. I've looked for a previous sale of this coin going back a quarter century and have not found one, so I have no other images to compare. The HA images are below-
Comments
There is no question that bidders who are able to examine coins in hand have a huge advantage over those who can only see coins on-line.
The only plausible explanation to me is the coin is a luster bomb in hand. However, that mud brown reverse appears very unappealing, really don’t know how one gets to 66 with that, even with booming luster.
Ugh. The reverse looks terminal and the giant THUMB print on the obverse is awful. Whoever submitted that to CAC must have been jumping for joy when that gold bean came back.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I agree; however in this day and age of old holder and sticker frenzy, it wouldn’t surprise me if an online buyer went all in based on those attributes and the coin’s appearance was ancillary.
No doubt it's all about the sticker.... I have sold several unimpressive but gold stickered commems recently only to find them in dealer inventory for double my price because there is still a fanatical if thin market for anything with a gold sticker.
Commems and Early Type
I'm a novice with the US market (but a pro with the Canadian market), but I would hazard a guess for 'sticker mania'.
The sticker thing is what it is, but in the end the only opinion I trust is my own...
Hard pass on the subject coin if I was in the market for a high-grade piece. It is ugly.
The coin did not "go crazy" for the sticker or the holder. It's a 65 with a gold sticker which sold for 66 retail money. Typically gold sticker mania is 2-3 grades up but at least next grade up with a plus.
Which is why OP asked if anyone had seen it in hand because the price is so much LOWER than expected, not higher.
>
Actually @lermish Tom specially stated "Alternatively, if the images are accurate then I am left scratching my head at the grade and sticker combination".
I think the lowered price might be telling of what bidders saw, in-hand or otherwise. I suspect it did NOT sell to a bidder who viewed it in hand, but that is pure speculation.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
And one of the other possibilities is that it did sell to a bidder who viewed it in hand and realized the bidder would be getting it for a good price as a result of the picture being so bad.
This is an example of why multiple photos or videos are important.. the shown photo is only accurate from one point of view. If the item is that impressive in hand to warrant such bidding, the courtesy of the in-hand experience must be passed on to the online bidder to the best of the ability of the seller.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
https://www.donahuenumismatics.com/.
That very well may be the case. But, sight unseen, if told about a Gold Sticker + Older Holder, most would estimate a price FAR higher than what this coin fetched. So, I think any "sticker mania" was muted as people saw the coin (via pictures or in hand) and did not care for it regardless of stickers and holders.
I think it's a great refutation of the people who think TPG/CAC fans only buy the plastic/bean. The bidders bid on the coin, not the holder/sticker!
When I think of the 1892 half, I think of this kind of luster! A very nice MS-64 here, that sold out of Stacks auction a year ago.
That one looks dipped and retoned from the images.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
CAC didn't think so.
Is it just me.....or is there so much discoloration and "blotches" on that coin that the MS-65 grade is on a curve ?
Many are assuming that this lifeless fingerprinted NGC 65 was graded by a higher power...most of us don't think this is a 65 selling for 66 money as some here have said. Perhaps a beanless coin would have sold for 64 money to a veteran collector. "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary"...from the screenplay for Our Lady of Fatima
Commems and Early Type
What if they did, but considered it market acceptable as an "A" coin because the surface preservation is so good? Is that something JA would do, or are all dipped/retoned coins rejected?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
I think you’re making an incorrect assumption. Chances are very strong that the coin was dipped. And that based on its technical condition and appearance, CAC was fine with that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can see that CAC would pass a coin that has been gently dipped. Retoned? I seriously doubt that would be considered acceptable.
Isn't a dipped and retoned coin more acceptable than a coin that was just dipped?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Great question! See my NEW POLL..
Many dipped coins retone on their own, as their surfaces become more reactive. That’s typically (though not always) acceptable and to be distinguished from coins that are artificially retoned.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sticker frenzy?
. > @CommemDude said:
.
How do you know it is ‘lifeless’? Have you seen it in hand? I suggest instead that folks actually see the coin in hand and then make a decision as a picture is not always revealing the true nature of a coin………………….
No one yet has answered affirmative to the OP that they have seen it in hand yet they criticize, oh wait, it is in an N holder. Well that says everything on the PCGS boards doesn’t it?
HST, here is the auction description of the coin from someone who did see it:
"However, the current coin stands apart with its exceptional quality and originality . Housed in a prior generation holder, the coin carries a CAC Gold label, and it yields surfaces that are beautifully pristine . Natural russet, olive-gold, lilac, and midnight-blue hues adorn the luminous fields , while the relief elements show creamy-ivory color. A bold strike adds to the appeal.”
Seems to be full of life from the description here from someone who has seen it in hand.
a" was muted as people saw the coin (via pictures or in hand) and did not care for it regardless of stickers and holders.
And perhaps not enough bidders saw the coin in hand and were not able to make an informative decision because of that, so backed off given images that did not do the coin justice IMO.
Or could be a somewhat embellished description by the auction company.
Simply not a photogenic looking coin. Must be nicer in person. This is why we can TRY AND PRACTICE grading coins by viewing via the internet but we cannot depend in viewing ohotos instead of in-person.
Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. This is the first chance I have had today to be online.
My guess is that the images are doing this coin no favors whatsoever, but if this were a “GTG of my new purchase” thread then I would couch my opinion first with the image disclaimer, but then guess MS64.
They show the obverse with myriad carbon spots, a major fingerprint and rather brownish toning while the reverse has slate or black toning with another major fingerprint and really no significant luster. Yet it’s not only an MS65, but it has a gold CAC sticker and CAC does not give gold stickers to Barber halves, especially in gem or better, with any real frequency.
The images and suppressed bidding level tell me one thing while NGC and CAC tell me something else. My guess is that I would not like this piece in-hand.
I’d still love to read what someone who saw this in-hand thought.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
CAC has given out 4,357 green stickers and 20 gold stickers to the entire series. In MS65 there have been 412 green stickers and 6 gold while in MS66 there are 295 green stickers and 1 gold.
So, CAC must really think something of this coin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
This would not be the first time that pictures don’t do a coin justice at an auction company. Agree with you though Tom.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I have yet to see an auction house come up with a description along the lines of "A particularly unappealing example, with dull toning and mediocre lustre for the grade. Fingerprints on both sides detract from the eye appeal. Despite these negative characteristics, a gem grade, old holder, and gold CAC sticker are sure to attract the interest of plastic collectors."
And if this coin and these photos were the same, but the coin was graded by PCGS instead, I'd think exactly the same of the coin.
Jeremy, you must have missed the one and only auction that my boutique auction house hosted. All the lot descriptions were like your example. Oddly enough, the market must have taken a temporary downturn because no one bid and new consignments dried up. I’ll put you on the mailing list if I ever run another auction!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Since CAC and CACG advertise themselves as essentially one in the same as far as standards, I think it would be a good experiment to crack that coin out and send it to CACG raw and see if it does come back a 66 or better.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
You simply cannot accurately and consistently grade a coin off a photo. I appreciate just about all the characteristics this coin has, sure the reverse toning appears meh but its off a phot so I assume it is lusterful and the color is not slate grey and the fingerprint is not distracting in the least
One thing I am 100% sure of, I would pay MANY MULTIPLES of that number for your 1892 Gold CAC business strike. Call me.
I still dream of that coin and love the story you told of when it arrived.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Yes. From what I see, CAC will sticker dipped and retoned coins if they are undergraded. I've seen several dipped coins that stickered and all were either otherwise choice for the grade or undergraded. I've only seen one overgraded coin (IMO) sticker and it was a nice VF35 in terms of wear that stickered as a EF40.
PCGS VF35 CAC - I believe this amber-colored SLH was dipped long ago and has retoned. In terms of its wear, I grade it at EF40.
