Dealer/customer conflict at a show
Ppp
Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭
I was at a coin show recently and witnessed a dealer/customer interaction that was appalling.
This is my take on the incident and here is a quick summary:
This very short summary can’t truly reflect just how bad this incident was in person.
A customer was not happy with a coin and the interaction that occurred was for the dealer launching multiple very loud f… bombs in an aggressive manner at the customer. To be fair the customer said a few too but nothing and I mean nothing in comparison to the dealer. The parties called each other outside however, while still inside fists were raised and the dealer was coming out from the back of his table. Show personnel, other dealers and attendees separated the two before any punches were thrown.
I view this entire interaction unacceptable and the dealer displayed very poor conflict resolution skills.
The behavior and language I witnessed was a disgrace, and it reflects poorly on all dealers, the show organizers and club. Thank god this incident didn’t occur earlier in the day when there were many more people, including children. Regardless, for the people that were there, what kind of image did this project?
In my mind all dealers at a show represent not only themselves, but the club, their fellow dealers, and such must be held to a higher standard. Penalties and/or punishment must be part of the by-laws and written into the membership and show contract (if not already there).
The club is investigating the incident.
I have my views on what should happen going forward but based on this short representation I would appreciate comments from fellow forum members.
Thank you in advance.
Comments
How does the behavior of one person reflect on EVERY DEALER?
I guess you feel this reflects badly on you as a coin person?
It sounds like both parties acted most inappropriately.
None of us know what led up to that interaction.
The dealer’s behavior doesn’t reflect on any other dealer, much less, all dealers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Take a breath. You're tarring all dealers with a very broad brush, and that's unfair. It takes two to tango, so I doubt there was a very clear line between "hero" and "villain." The fact that coin show personnel and other dealers broke it up before it came to blows speaks highly of them. With that in mind, how does this reflect poorly on "all" dealers, the organizers and the club? The club and its organizers sell tables. Most usually leave that an open invitation either all the time, or when local dealers don't purchase all tables. If it's an outside dealer, that person may be someone known to the club, or he/she may be an unknown quantity who wants to set up shop. Is it the club's responsibility to deeply vet every dealer? If you think it is, then it's inherent on them to vet every visitor, and that's not feasible or possible. You don't know if there's a backstory between the two having the argument. You don't know everything that was said prior to the blowup. So my take is as I stated at the beginning...should a large group (dealers) be tarred with that big brush and suffer the sins of one bad apple? Of course not. The situation was mitigated thanks to some of them. Remember...dealers are human beings. Some humans are great people; some are abhorrent. Same goes.
"Brother, can you spare a dime?" (Especially a 1975 no S proof?)
Jmlanzaf: It reflects badly on every dealer because any attendee that sees such a display I believe will hold the show itself questionable. Do I want to attend a show where dealers acting this way is acceptable. I say no.
That’s how I see it. It doesn’t mean it’s right, it’s just my view.
Be advised - If the dealer is a senior citizen and a show participant were to shove / strike the dealer that is a felony. I don’t know what really happened there or what triggered the incident. It seems to be an incident where security was needed to keep it from getting out of control.
For many dealers sight seen transactions at shows are final. Many even have signs at their table stating that. Further more many dealers (including myself) are packing heat to defend themselves if attacked.
I do believe in behaving in a professional manner both for practical reasons and per the show contract. However if attacked, knocked down its highly possible I would have to shoot them dead in defending myself.
Where was this show ???
Should it then also reflect badly on ALL customers since he/she also acted inappropriately?
"Do I want to attend a show where dealers acting this way is acceptable. I say no."
From what you stated, it wasn't acceptable as other dealers stepped in.
That dealer must have pissed me off. I regret that I caused you all to reflect in a bad way.
In Cheektowaga, NY
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
In the good old days, you could threaten to throw them off a roof.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I thought your assistant was skilled in the martial arts?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Tempers can flare in any setting. While I agree that the dealer should have behaved much better, I would also like to know more about how the customer behaved that initiated the dispute before rendering an opinion.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
At the recycling center we feud over quilted Hefty bags of aluminum cans; call the law if copper shows up.
If there were ever silver and gold the bodies went into the compactor.
1 dealer does not reflect the whole or any other dealer at all. 1 collector does not reflect the whole or any other collector at all. 1 American does not the whole or any other American at all. etc……………………….
A "felony battery on a senior citizen" refers to a criminal charge where someone commits a battery (physical assault) against an elderly person, causing significant injury, which is considered serious enough to be classified as a felony due to the victim's age and the severity of the harm inflicted; this often falls under "elder abuse" laws in most jurisdictions, carrying harsher penalties than a standard battery charge
peacockcoins
And after the distraction, many dealers noticed coins missing from their tables...
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
Do you know this as a fact? We're you at the show?
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a "customer" would instigate a scene so their partner could do just that. (Not there's evidence of that here.)
Just joking -
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
A group of thieves could have easily taken advantage of a situation like that.
I don’t allow people reach in my cases nor have bins of loose inventory outside the display case. As far as somebody opening the case and taking it out without the dealers permission that can be construed as shoplifting especially if it left the table.
dance-offs are the best way to handle numismatic arguments we know this
That's an interesting hypothetical scenario. Here's another. What if the customer bought a coin from this dealer at another recent show and it turned out to be a counterfeit and the dealer claimed it wasn't the coin that he sold to the collector and then rudely refused to take it back? We can only guess at what took place between the collector and the dealer and until we know what took place we shouldn't be taking sides.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I was going to respond but choose not to because too many already have made their mind up.
Years ago in a show in downtown LA a well known dealer kept a gun ( 45) in his case for all to see.
Scary it was. After I left the show I read the next day the gun went off somehow. ( cocked and locked ?)
Caused quite a ruckus!! Guns should be checked with security before anyone being let in a show!
TSA type security is now at the Long Beach coin shows. Not sure at shows if there is perimeter security?
Was at a local club show a few years ago where their was perimeter security in the parking lot , but the young man guard was twerling his AR4 like a he was leading a marching band. Freaked alot of the attendees out.
Next show he was gone.
#
I still did that with certain inspectors, commissioning agents and other contractors up until last month when I semi-retired. And I some of them rightly knew I meant it!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Frankly I don’t think it’s a good idea get in an argument (or lose control) with some collector or other player. There is no reason why I should. I am there to move my stuff but not get ripped lol. If he’s not a buyer then he can go shop around. If he has some BS pushing his counter offer price, perhaps it’s time for him to leave. I had a guy try argue with me some time bc Joe dealer across the room told him it was a $160 coin (vs my price $175). When he came back with that just calmly told him “I said it was $175.” He then left in a huf. Another guy, well known dealer who would quote bid to talk one down - just told him “so what that’s wholesale.” Some who make a low offer I just make a counter offer.
What is the dealers name so he can defend himself if he so chooses?
If his name's not known, he has no need to defend himself. But if it were to be revealed, he'd likely be harassed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In that scenario it could be a matter for the courts to decide. Perhaps the collector should seek legal counsel. If the dealers policy is that sight seen transactions are final…..
However until we know the facts this will go around and around here. A paralegal friend advised me - she said “If your policy is going to be sight seen transactions final then you need a sign in your case saying that.” However with something involving a counterfeit I will ask her. I would think the plaintiff would need proof it’s cf to really move forward. Considering Atty fees…..then how is somebody going to prove its really the dealers coin? Does the collector have the money to pay legal costs? What a mess.
I see a disagreement that escalated. Both people, being adults, should be able to control their emotions. They did not, and should have been asked to leave (and not return).
I’m from a stand your ground state. I’d rather my name be revealed and answer to the allegations vs worried about being harassed. If said dealer is a billy badass, let’s hear his side of the story.
Yes it appears the dealer not going to take crud from some collector nor another dealer. Neither would I. But make a scene? - no. It’s like my mentor in the biz years ago told me - “when their BS starts it’s time for them to leave.”
Well if the dealer has gotten the heck out of Dodge (no plan to return) depending where that happened he may just go to ground so to speak keep a low profile / get legal counsel if he feels the need. I just don’t see him going back to next years show. However he could be a victim…proudly show up and tell them bring it on or get lost. Again this could also be a sight seen transactions are final issue. The collector has to prove its CF. I wonder how big ticket a coin it was. Enough to justify legal fees?
Wagering that the customer grabbed the last donut from the Krispy Kreme carton.
That’s good to know. Next time a young guy wants to beat my ancient ass I’ll let him even though I know I could take him down.
Surely someone was taking a video. There is always a video of every other altercation 🙈
Lafayette Grading Set
Don't call me Surely.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
?? ???
We have an anonymous tale. You think it makes more sense to name the individual so that he's forced to defend himself than leave him anonymous so that he has no beef? That's forcing a conflict where none currently exists.
Where is Dan. He probably has a satellite image from the parking lot.
Logic: I don't prefer to debate an "anonymous tale".
T
If i give you a name, are you ready to discuss it?
Reading more of this thread /
I don’t care who it is or on some witch hunt but it is disturbing the situation got out of control. I don’t believe in getting in an argument with some collector. When their BS starts it’s time for them to leave. If hostile incident were to develop call security. Be ready defend yourself. My brother in law runs a gun store - I have a really good gun bought from him. Go to shooting range all the time. Rehearse situations where have to react quickly take out an attacker even if somehow were knocked down.
Apparently "the customer is always right" doesn't apply at coin shows. Regardless, without knowing exactly what was said, it's moot. Two hotheads will eventually enter each others orbit.
USAF veteran 1984-2005
Not quite enough details, but typically a business owner is held to a higher standard than the general public. You have to be ready to deal with all kinds of characters when dealing with the public and still keep your cool. In the same sense dealers are held to a higher level of professionalism than the general public. Again, it's hard to fully assess based on the detail provided.
Don't you just hate it, when you're robbed, while you're busy assaulting someone?? LOL
Or used the last of the mustard without replacing it!
Joking aside,,,,Were you there?
If so, or if you have knowledge of the events, please enlighten us.
I have made NO judgement, as the details are FAR too sketchy and incomplete.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
This happens more often than you think (without hand-to-hand combat)
Most often caused by customers thinking that are entitled to set the price of the sale.
The best thing a dealer can do is call security and ask the customer to be removed from table.
@PTVETTER Thanks for clearing that up. I’ve seen a few heated exchanges, at shows, so I can certainly feature that scenario.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
As a business person, I’ve always kept my cool with difficult customers and have taught my employees to do the same. Nothing is gained by letting a customer get your goat. Business is business.