1936 Proof Set Submission Results In - WHAAAT!?
ATF Coins
Posts: 120 ✭✭✭
I submitted this beautiful 1936 proof set that I acquired from a local reputable dealer and the mixed results have me baffled and upset. The half dollar, quarter and dime all came back graded high. Great! Pretty much what I was expecting. Here's what I wasn't expecting....
The penny came back as Genuine/Questionable Color. Uh huh, sure. Whatever you say PCGS. If you say so. This coin will be resubmitted and I am sure grade next time. Black plastic capitol cases can tone coins like this. Frustrating, but part of the game. The most upsetting part of this submission was that PCGS deemed the brilliant uncirculated proof nickel as counterfeit. WHAT!? Why?
Why is what I wanted to know so I called them only to be told that no notes were given as to why it was deemed fake because that would help counterfeiters make better fakes. Although I understand this point, I really want to know why they would completely kill the value of this (what I believe to be) completely authentic coin. How am I even supposed to dispute this with the dealer I bought it from without a reason as to why it would be fake? Uhhg! Not the results I was hoping for or can even understand as to why?
Thanks for letting me vent.
Successful deals withChrisH821, fhc, greencopper, Al21, AUandAG, wondercoin, KellenCoin, and you next.
Comments
Your images aren't doing these coins any favors, but I think you already know that. If you had posted images of the coins without the details I would likely have called out the Buffalo as being a polished business strike. However, the problem with the images limits anything we can do to help. Regardless, if you believe it is indeed a proof then NGC and CACG are options. Good luck.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The color of the cent is unnatural looking - it has the appearance of one that’s been cleaned.
Sharper images might help but from what I can see, the nickel doesn’t look counterfeit. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s genuine and an incorrect reason was given for the lack of a grade. However, if “counterfeit” ends up being the final determination from PCGS, you shouldn’t need a precise explanation beyond that in order to get a refund from the seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The cent’s color is certainly appearing “off”. The nickel looks like a polished business strike.
Coin Photographer.
The die crack on the Cent reverse is weird. Is a reverse die crack known on 1936 Proofs? I would think that would have been flagged and the coins rejected.
http://macrocoins.com
You said that these were in capitol holders? They appear to be at the very least from different sets and stored improperly. The nickel appears polished, but it might just be the picture. It certainly seems real though, I'm 99% sure. As Mark said, it probably was some sort of details grade and they put the wrong reason on the label.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Is that a die crack, a lamination or a scratch? Never seen it on a 1936 anything.
Could the counterfeit decision on the nickel refer to the finish (i.e., not a counterfeit coin but a counterfeit proof)?
The buffalo appears to be polished from the picture.
From the pictures I would call the nickel genuine, polished. Over the decades I have seen a few 1936-1942 Proof sets with one coin swapped out.
I’ve never heard of that being done before. If they didn’t think it was a Proof, they’d presumably change the assigned PCGS number to that of a circulation strike (and label it “polished”, “altered surfaces” or whatever).
Maybe when the OP receives the coin back from PCGS there will be different information regarding the result.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What's that tumor on the Buffalo?
I just went and looked at some Coin Fact images and it it there, in varying strengths, on both Proofs and Business Strikes.
I am not offering a second opinion based on these images…
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Nickel reverse seems to have some lack of sharpness, on the rear legs. Also the 'tumor' behind the horn? Certainly does seem to be polished.
What tumor? Are you seeing the ear and calling it a tumor?
What are the grades of the coins?
Guess this a good example of buying graded coins is mandatory of such high value coins.
Also that mercury dime the color toning or spotted does not look good. Was it caused by being in a paper coin holder envelope or such.
The grades were mentioned in the opening post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That nickel is definitely a polished circulation strike. Counterfeit is not the right term.
The color on the cent looks a bit weird.
Congrats on the half, quarter, and dime. Those look very nice. If you decide to sell that quarter let me know
Collector, occasional seller
I doubt he can keep the dime, quarter, half and cent, but return (just) the nickel. Or maybe the grades for the other coins cover his cost, either way.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He says he bought them from a local dealer. I'm sure they can work something out so he can keep the legitimate coins and be compensated for the "fake" nickel. It should have been quickly spotted by the dealer and removed from the set, IMO.
Collector, occasional seller
Tough question. My gut feeling is that he has to return all or nothing. Then there is the matter of the slab fees.
PCGS will at times designate a coin as counterfeit if the host coin is altered in such a way so as to represent something it is not.
Here are two examples. Note each is a genuine cent, counterfeited to appear as errors:
peacockcoins
What are those? The cert numbers are not valid and the slabs do not look like PCGS. The last time I got a counterfeit back from PCGS, there was a note attached -do not slab-.
I agree with other members on the cent and nickel.
I will admit I don’t collect Buffalo nickels or Lincoln cents so my knowledge of either series is somewhat limited. My knowledge with early proofs is even less, but I have looked at enough coins over the last 13+ years of serious collecting to have some intuition.
My initial thoughts were that the nickel did appear to be a polished business strike and the color of the cent does look fishy.
Specifically the obverse detail of the nickel looks very soft. Again, I haven’t seen enough 1936 proof buffalos to know what the strike should look like, but what I’m seeing doesn’t look like what I assume a strike proof should look like even on an early proof. Also, I’m not familiar at all with how capitol holders impart toning on any type of coin so I don’t know if the color on the cent is natural or not, but overall it just seems off based on intuition.
Yes, it's the ear but it looks oddly bulbous and featureless, maybe from polishing or maybe its just the photo.
Brilliant PR-66 from PCGS CoinFacts above; Satin PR-66 below.
The fields on the genuine Brilliant proof look a lot less noisy than on the one classified as counterfeit.
Is the OP coin suppose to be satin or brilliant?
Here are the two cents from my 1936 set, the Satin and Brilliant finish pieces.
Satin Finish, graded PR-65, Brown
Brilliant finish, graded PR-64, R&B. I found this coin has been a bear to photograph, but it should give you an idea as to how the coin should look.
I think that your piece has been dipped or cleaned in an effort to restore the red color. This would not be beyond possibility. A prior owner, who kept the set intact, was not pleased that the cent had toned.
I will be heading directly there with the nickel when it comes back to see what can be done.
Successful deals withChrisH821, fhc, greencopper, Al21, AUandAG, wondercoin, KellenCoin, and you next.
The penny is Satin and the buffalo was supposed to be brilliant.
Successful deals withChrisH821, fhc, greencopper, Al21, AUandAG, wondercoin, KellenCoin, and you next.
Hopefully it goes well and you get a refund for the nickel. Lots of ways this could start to go badly, though. It's been a long time since your purchase and the dealer gives you a hard time about it and asks why. You tell him you sent the coins for grading, hence the delay. He asks what the other coins graded and you tell him the half graded PR66 and he won't give a refund unless you return the whole set (just say it's real) or says you were already made whole by PCGS. He could also accuse you of switching the coin, but if it's a reputable dealer that's unlikely.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The hard plastic used in Capital Plastics holders was completely inert. However, with Proof coins it is sometimes difficult to get the coins all the way into the hole, and if one or more coins sticks up a bit and the three layers of plastic are not 100% flush with each other air gets in through the gaps.
Congrats on the results of the 3 silver proofs. Hard to make any comments on the Lincoln and Buffalo due to low picture quality. No comment on the Lincoln, but the Buffalo does look to have an unnatural look to it. The surfaces don’t look right, and there is a lack of detail. Take a look at this PCGS proof 67+ Satin I just purchased for comparison.
Were these pieces returned from PCGS raw with the tags enclosed and then placed into generic, TPG-adjacent plastic shells you can buy on places like Alibaba or etsy?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Good eye. I looked again and the labels don't even fit the space properly.
I think the cent is accurately described Gen/QC... and the nickel needs better pics but my gut says lightly polished
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I once passed on a 1904 US PHILIPPINE proof set from a local dealer as several coins in my opinion were not proofs but circ strikes with light wear and of course they were the money coins.
Beware old raw proof sets with inserted coins because they started with an incomplete set. And could not find proof coins to complete it.
Yes.
These are coins returned from PCGS as "counterfeit" (although the host coins are genuine) and placed into plastic generic holders.
peacockcoins
Quick update...I just returned from the dealer and he bought the nickel back for the exact amount that I would have asked for to make it fair. I am happy now. All is well.
Successful deals withChrisH821, fhc, greencopper, Al21, AUandAG, wondercoin, KellenCoin, and you next.
These always make me laugh.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.