A New Birth and Big Score? - $1 Morgan 65 DMPL to SP 65 / Update 1881 O PR64

lilolme

A New Birth and Big Score? - $1 Morgan 65 DMPL to SP 65

So I got reminded of the Morgan branch mint proofs. I recalled this related semi-recent happening and thought others might find it interesting.

First a note on the Morgan branch mint proofs. This information is from an older Highfill book (1997) and may have changed some. I did not check. There were three Morgan branch mint proofs (BMPR) noted with some type of documentation. They were the 1879 O, 1883 O and 1893 CC. All noted as mintage 12 but not that many known. The 1883 O was noted as very little known and secondary information in 1884 American Journal of Numismatics. Then there were the more well known 1921 P and 1921 S. The other dates - mint marks were noted as not documented and not known and determined through discovery / finding and examination. In some cases it was stated that some thought they were excellent proof-likes. The book actually lists the dates - mint marks in categories from 1 to 5 as to how definitive the author thought at that time each date - mint mark was toward being a BMPR. Auction descriptions of some of the lots describe die cracks on some of these coins.

So the new BMPR birth. The December 2023 Legend auction at the pcgs show in LV had lot 83 an 1892 CC 65 DMPL. Part of the lot description stated:
‘This coin is not a regular looking DMPL. We think (but can not prove), this is some kind of specimen (possibly Eliasberg? ).’

The above noted book mentions a possible colonel Green 1892 CC noted by Breen but not confirmed and questioned.

At the pcgs show and there were a couple people viewing it and thinking it could be a proof. They won the lot. I checked back on the coinfacts page off and on after this. Then it showed up, an 1892 CC SP 65. See below for links.

Link to the Legend auction Dec 2023 for the 1892 CC 65 DMPL (through Hi-Bid)

https://hibid.com/lot/176035031/-1-1892-cc-pcgs-ms65-dmpl?ref=catalog
.

.
Link to the pcgs cert page for the 1892 CC SP 65

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/22044364

And the coinfacts page - pcgs coin number 87214

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1892-cc-1/87214/65
.

.
And that is the new birth of a Morgan Branch Mint Proof or is it Branch Mint Specimen / Special Strike?

Not sure that the proof versus specimen matters much, well on the $$$ or does it?

The big score?
Auction price for 65 DMPL just over - $85,000.
And PCGS price guide for the SP 65 $650,000.

Don’t know where pcgs got their price guide value. Estimated from similar past auctions? Some private sales information? Other? There are several auction records for other Morgan branch mint proofs or specimens. Earlier this year one of the several 1893 CC BMPR was listed for $375,000.

Pnies20

Wow… very interesting

johnny010

@Floridafacelifter might have additional insights.

Floridafacelifter

@johnny010 said:
@Floridafacelifter might have additional insights.

Proof Morgans- my most favorite-ist topic!!

I do know this coin- it is one of those CC dollars that just doesn’t look like a business strike, but on the other hand no mint documents reveal any of the history behind its striking so everyone scratches their heads about what to call it. (NGC often just calls this type of nebulous coin a proof and doesn’t get down and dirty into the nitty gritty SP, BM, etc.)

I have a similar coin which is an 84CC SP67Cameo CAC

So a friend of mine suspected what this coin was, paid up for it at auction, got it into an SP holder, and offered it to me- I almost bought it but we couldn’t quite come to a price agreeable to both parties.

PCGS has labeled it SP which stands for SPecimen or SPecial strike depending on who you ask (I’ve had this discussion with JD several times).

The 1893s are well documented and were created to celebrate cessation of Morgan Dollar coining at the Carson City Mint so they typically receive the more formal designation BM. I did purchase the 93CC mentioned above also.

I also own the 1878-S SP65 CAC which is unique like this 92CC, and let’s not forget the Zerbe 1921 Morgans

Just to jazz this thread up a bit here are mine:
1878-S SP65 CAC

1884-CC SP67 Cameo CAC

1893-CC BM65+ CAC

1921 Zerbe SP66+ CAC

jacrispies

@Pnies20 said:
Wow… very interesting

Thinking about collecting Morgans now eh buddy? Time to start the Morgan Dollar Nut Club.

Tibor

@Floridafacelifter Those are beautiful. Thanks for sharing 👍

bestmr

That 1878 is beautiful!
And I didn’t know such things existed so thanks for the education.

GoBust

Those are beyond other wordly Don! WOW!

lilolme

I have not been checking in on the Forum much lately but did a quick search and didn't see this noted, so hoping not a repeat.

Stacks just sold an 1881 O PR64. I don't know anything about it except what is written in the Stacks auction lot description which is somewhat extensive. Screenshot below but much more at the Stacks link.

Interesting that it sold for $660,000. and PCGS had a price guide price of $650,000. for the above 1892 CC SP65.

I don't know why one is called a Proof and the other a SP in the pcgs grading since I believe both are the same as far as no mint records.

Stacks Auction Lot archive link:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1DU1H4/1881-o-morgan-silver-dollar-proof-64-pcgs-cac-cmq

Connecticoin

Perhaps the Florida plastic surgeon can provide some explanation or perspective on the SP-PR difference, if any.

logger7

"Don’t know where pcgs got their price guide value."

It's always high retail. I guess they just don't want to underprice any of their coins.

I've been meaning to get back up to northern New England to a shop where a guy has what he swears is a branch mint, I think it is an 84-o and take a picture of it to get opinions here.

Floridafacelifter

@Connecticoin said:
Perhaps the Florida plastic surgeon can provide some explanation or perspective on the SP-PR difference, if any.

I was fortunate enough to add the 81-O to my collection- I don’t have a lot of information to add yet as I have not seen it in hand but looking forward to seeing it in person!

Crypto

Hell of a coin but I just don’t understand the mental gymnastics of declaring something a proof when production practices made so many PL and there is always such a wide range in production quality esp during that era.

Within the normal production variances; if one was to take 100 DMPL gems which would produce the #1 in quality (closest to proof) all the way to the 100th in quality, to simple declare the top 5 (ish) best made to be Proofs almost seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. Any deviation in quality being prescribed to “not having access to Philadelphia processes” when the very designation is process dependent. Clearly some coins are elite quality and special survivors but to designate without supporting facilities logic or documentation seems unacademic. I understand “the fabric” arguments and expert opinions but opinions are only that.

Some issues have better documentation than others so my argument is more in general than about any specific coin. IMHO all special BM coins would qualify for no more than a SP designation and even then should almost always have some form of documentation to establish the S.

coastaljerseyguy

@Floridafacelifter
Congrats on purchase and adding to your proof collection. Definitely a special coin. When you receive in hand, can you tell if the same dies from the Philly Vam 8 proof were used or different. Wonder if the same dies were sent to NO after striking the ~900 proof coins and struck this coin for some commemorative event or person. If yes, there should be a bump on the second 1 and a couple of easy markers on the Eagle wings.

Floridafacelifter

@coastaljerseyguy said:
@Floridafacelifter
Congrats on purchase and adding to your proof collection. Definitely a special coin. When you receive in hand, can you tell if the same dies from the Philly Vam 8 proof were used or different. Wonder if the same dies were sent to NO after striking the ~900 proof coins and struck this coin for some commemorative event or person. If yes, there should be a bump on the second 1 and a couple of easy markers on the Eagle wings.

No bump
Here’s the Philly 68DCAM

And the 81-O

MFeld

@logger7 said:
"Don’t know where pcgs got their price guide value."

It's always high retail. I guess they just don't want to underprice any of their coins.

I've been meaning to get back up to northern New England to a shop where a guy has what he swears is a branch mint, I think it is an 84-o and take a picture of it to get opinions here.

Tell him to quit swearing and submit it if he’s honestly that confident about it.

logger7

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
"Don’t know where pcgs got their price guide value."

It's always high retail. I guess they just don't want to underprice any of their coins.

I've been meaning to get back up to northern New England to a shop where a guy has what he swears is a branch mint, I think it is an 84-o and take a picture of it to get opinions here.

Tell him to quit swearing and submit it if he’s honestly that confident about it.

He's afraid they'd switch the coin on him if it actually is a branch proof, he claims they did it before, not sure which of the top two he thinks that about, but obviously he loses credibility when he says something like that.

MFeld

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
"Don’t know where pcgs got their price guide value."

It's always high retail. I guess they just don't want to underprice any of their coins.

I've been meaning to get back up to northern New England to a shop where a guy has what he swears is a branch mint, I think it is an 84-o and take a picture of it to get opinions here.

Tell him to quit swearing and submit it if he’s honestly that confident about it.

He's afraid they'd switch the coin on him if it actually is a branch proof, he claims they did it before, not sure which of the top two he thinks that about, but obviously he loses credibility when he says something like that.

Yes, he certainly loses credibility for that. I’ve found that there are quite a few collectors out there who are certain that they have very rare/valuable coins which would benefit greatly from authentication and grading. But they don’t bother to submit them. I suspect that in many cases, they prefer to just go on believing, and not wanting to be confronted reality.