Central American Republic 8 reales "Private Countermark"
Euclid
Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
I'm wondering if anybody has information on this countermark. There are two examples I have found, one raw and one slabbed. NGC said "Private Countermark" on the slabbed example, but there's no additional info from either NGC or the auctioneer's websites.
Would NGC need to find that mark in a reference in order to attribute it as a private countermark instead of any other form of post mint damage? Or is visual inspection enough to call it that?
Can anyone find this mark in any reference? I would be really grateful as the references I've seen are quite expensive and will have to go on my wishlist for the time being.
I sort of have a hunch it's related to Costa Rica or was done by a Costa Rican? Only because a 6 pointed star or flower appears on Costa Rican coinage and counterstamps of the era, but none look like this. Just a hunch...
One final point of interest is these marks both appear on coins of the same date and with the same reverse die, but with different obverse dies, as can be seen in the 7 of the date. One coin is 7/6 and the other is not.
Comments
A private countermark means it’s an unofficial stamp. It has a design, so it’s a stamp. It’s not an official or referenced issue, so it’s private.
I think “private countermark” is the default (As opposed to a public or government entity that marked the coin.) PMD is damage, this, on the other hand probably wasn’t intended as damage, but for a practical purpose. I mean, who has a punch produced that’s beautiful, meaningful or useful, just to deface money? There was a reason…There are many reasons why people countermark coinage, many of which are markings that increase the historic value of the coin. Perhaps the purpose is lost to time, but that makes it a wonderful research journey to find what it was.
If you can’t prove the mark is done by a ruling or controlling government entity, then it’s regarded as a private counterstamp or maverick counterstamp. If it’s obviously done with a manufactured punch, it’s generally seen as a privately issued counterstamp. If it was made like some dude in a garage just testing out his letter punches, that’s closer to being regarded as PMD.
Without further knowledge, this is a private countermark, especially when considering that there’s more than one known. There’s a reason. Just gotta find it…which is unlikely without more information. Benign shapes are hard to research.
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One time I found a coin that carried a patent mark. I researched the stamp and found that it was a patent for a nutcracker, those metal ones that are so ubiquitous during Christmas. I was able to find the oldest nutcrackers that carried that stamp, found an old advertisement and put all of it in a shadow box for display. It was really great putting all those pieces of history together!
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Definitely is reminiscent of the Costa Rica star.
@MrEureka ??
A private countermark is PMD, that’s why it’s in a details holder. Even if more information were found it would still be PMD, if of private manufacture.
I'm not familiar with the mark. The two marks are different, which is interesting because it makes you wonder if one is real and the other fake. And if someone thought it was worth faking the mark, the mark may have been of some contemporary importance. Which I doubt, but it's worthy of further investigation.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I thought that too on first look, but I think the mark on the 2nd coin shown is just double-struck.
A private countermark is PMD, that’s why it’s in a details holder. Even if more information were found it would still be PMD, if of private manufacture.
In the eye of the beholder my friend.
Damage is physical harm caused to an object in such a way as to that impair the value, usefulness or normal function.
I can give you a very long list of coins that have improved value due to countermarks. I can also give you many examples of an improved usefulness with very little diminished function. Certainly it will depend on one opinion of what has “value” but by a strict definition of “damage” many, if not most countermarked coins are not considered damage in the open market. Plenty of third party graders recognize this, including some at PCGS.
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There is improved value and are not damage when they are OFFICIAL. O f f i c i a l. Not private, except in very specific circumstances. And regardless of whether value is increased or decreased on a private countermark, it is PMD.
Also, you just made up a definition of “damage”. Damage is damage. A chopmark (which is not a countermark, btw) that increases the value of a coin because it appears on a rarely-chopmarked host is still damaged. An artificially toned silver eagle that would get certified as AT but sells for more than a straight 69 because someone out there thinks the colors are pretty is still damaged.
“Official” defined as what?
The definition I used as “damage” is directly from the dictionary. Damage isn’t damage unless you can define damage first, you didn’t, I did. There’s nuance to the what you’re so black and white about, you even admitted it “except in very specific circumstances.”
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The dictionary definition is not the definition used by the TPGs or collectors. If you’re going to use that definition, then an MS69 should be a Details coin because it has received damage that reduces its value from an MS70. That’s not a useful or meaningful definition in the context of grading. My negligence to provide a definition does not make yours any more valid; as I have shown with multiple examples, it is demonstrably inaccurate.
If you don’t know the difference between an official counterstamp and a private one, then you shouldn’t be having this conversation. An official counterstamp is one issued by a mint, governmental, or similar entity for the purpose of revaluing the host coin for reuse. For instance, an 8 Reales with a George III stamp indicates a revaluation by the Bank of England as one Dollar. Official counterstamps can be authenticated because they are tied to specific entities and are stylistically consistent within their type.
A private stamp does not perform that function. There is nothing tying the present stamp to any official entity or revaluation, and it is anyway too crude-looking to expect that to be the case. This coin was not given a straight grade because the stamp is not official. It is a random design that is punched into the surface, with no known affiliation with the revaluation of the cost. That’s the bottom line. The value doesn’t matter. If someone wants to pay extra for it, they can do that, but it will still be damaged. I could make a similar stamp myself, and it would also receive a “private counterstamp” details grade.
@you
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@you
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Both private counterstamps
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This is a Merchant counterstamp. Merchant stamps are akin to official counterstamps in the way that tokens are akin to coins. They’re one of those “exceptions” I mentioned, but are much different from the present piece. In a technical sense they are of private manufacture, but they are tied to specific entities and have text.
However, they’re still damaged. They’re just collected in the way that one would collect tokens.
This is damaged. It’s just straight-graded because people collect these. And notice again that this example has text, that allows for some sort of affiliation.
If the ANA makes a stamp that says “ANA Show 2025” and stamps it onto a bunch of Washington Quarters that they distribute at the ANA show next yeat, there’s a chance they’ll get into a straight-graded holders as a sort of token counterstamp (while still technically being damage). If I make a stamp in the shape of a crude flower and stamp it onto 100 different portrait 8 Reales, I can promise you they will not get into straight-graded holders.
The difference being that when text is used on the stamp, that is generally a clear indication that the host coin is being reused for a different purpose, such that it is now essentially both the (danaged) underlying coin and fulfilling the function of the stamp - advertising, commemorating, etc. In this sense it is very comparable to an official counterstamp, except that it is of private manufacture (hence the token to coin comparison).
However, stamping a non-text design with no other context not only provides no affiliation, but no clear intention as a reuse of the host coin. Generally in order for a stamped shape to be straight-graded, it must be official so as to fulfill those categories.
A chopmark, for example, does not imply any reuse of the host coin. It is simply a sign that the coin’s weight/fineness has been approved. The host coin, however, still retains its use. That’s why those are not straight-graded (except for PCGS with only trade dollars, which is widely regarded as silly).
CACG also straight grades chopmarked trade dollars. ANACS awards numeric grades for chopped trades.
And you may think this practice is silly but you are wrong about "widely regarded". Not only does the most highly regarded TPG award numeric grades, so does the widely accepted most stringent TPG. They have separate price listings in all of the GS publications and years of strong market performance.
So whether you think it's widely regarded as silly or not, a huge portion of the market disagrees with you.
PCGS was lobbied by a dealer in trade dollars to do so. The other TPGs (except NGC) followed their lead. There is no reason why every other type of chopped coin is graded details but this one particular type should be straight graded. There is also no way to objectively authenticate chopmarks 99%+ of the time. They are not like countermarks, which can be die-matched and stylistically matched. And there are plenty of fake chops out there.
So yeah, it’s silly, and I hear plenty of people saying that it’s silly. I don’t really care what the “market” will pay for the coins - the “market” very often makes illogical decisions.
There are multiple flaws in your logic.
So yeah, it's not silly, and I hear plenty of people talk about chopmarks with great numismatic and historical interest. I don't really care what "some guy" says about chopmarks - "some guys" very often make broad, sweeping, and incorrect conclusions based on limited knowledge of the subject.
Or, hey, instead, anyone else have insight on an interesting Central American countermark... rather than pedantry??
I wonder if it is the same countermark, but on @Euclid 's coin it is struck twice, slightly offset.
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Straight graded and numerically graded are synonymous. That’s literally what straight graded means.
Invalid argument. So were many other chopmarked trade types that are not straight graded, like Japanese trade dollars. They are not straight graded because the chops are damage, in a way little different from a test cut or a peck mark, and because chops cannot be authenticated. You could easily apply your own chops to a trade dollar to cover up underlying damage. Voila, now it’s a straight grade.
No, they should not. Idiotic take.
It’s flat out correct. In the vast majority of cases there is no way to authenticate chops, as much as anyone who has skin in the game might insist otherwise. They are almost never tied to any particular issuers or eras. This is basic knowledge. There’s nothing stopping anyone from making and applying their own chops, and it is done very frequently. I can guarantee you that PCGS is not authenticating the chops on Trade Dollars using any method more advanced than “the vibe of this is convincing enough”.
People have a hard enough time authenticating countermarks, which for obvious reasons are much simpler to deal with. For the vast majority of chopmarks, forget about it.
Ok, I don’t care about what you have to say at all. End of conversation.
You clearly have mistaken your opinion for fact. It's pointless arguing with someone who doesn't even know what they don't know. Enjoy the certainty of your ignorance.
@lermish
That's an INCREDIBLE set of "damaged" coins you have there. Seriously, that must have taken forever.
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Same to you, buddy. I know a whole lot more about authentication than you ever will.
It's really difficult to say whether these are different tools. Slight changes in angle can look dramatically different.
The placement on both coins in nearly identical locations certainly supports the idea that this is some undocumented intentional stamp for a specific purpose.
As a side note, I wish the moderators wouldn't let trolls hijack interesting discussions with pointless ranting.
It's ok to disagree, let's try to learn how to disagree WITHOUT personal attacks.
There is no need to assert someone of having "ignorance" or say that someone's opinion is "idiotic".