@ChrisH821 said:
They put entirely too much faith in their AI. Once I got the first message about a listing I reported being checked by AI and not finding an issue I stopped reporting anything. This is their problem to fix.
Same. I'm done trying to help. They developed a system that crowd-sourced quality control and then dismiss and disregard the reports. Screw them.
Mark, What do the TPGs do to protect the brand after they slab the coin? Do they have investigators? Is the policing up to us? VWoA paid bounty to people who reported violation of copyright and trade mark rights.
@ChrisH821 said:
They put entirely too much faith in their AI. Once I got the first message about a listing I reported being checked by AI and not finding an issue I stopped reporting anything. This is their problem to fix.
I wouldn’t even say that they are putting faith in their AI but more so that it’s simply a “check the box” exercise for them so that they can say that they have prevention measures in place.
As far as I’m concerned their AI might as well be replaced with a Microsoft outlook rule that auto generates a message saying that AI reviewed the report and found nothing wrong.
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone post a response on here saying that AI determined the listing to be a fake lol.
You can tell them that the members on the PCGS coin forum give you unwavering support in your attempts to root out numismatic fraud! The burden is on them especially if there has been a very high percentage confirmation of your reports that are done without compensation.
I would think that eBay would have some liability as an accessory to fraud if they permit fakes to be peddled as authentic coins, the reason after all that the grading services came about in the first place, not specifically grading. I'm sure their legal department dictates many of their policies to maximize profits and minimize lawsuits; they must be really afraid of class actions.
Many of the coin organizations we use and depend on have at times and more so lately have become ivory towers of
Dictatorships. Disgregarding the observations and comments from people outside their bubble that have vastly more experience and knowledge then they have. The community experts ( such as Mr. Feld) are treated as know nothings.
I have had experience with such first hand more than a few times. After 50 plus years collecting my specialty i am treated as I know nothing they are the experts. Their mistakes sometimes are glaring and show their lack of knowledge / competence, yet they continue to reject outside correction comments disrespectively.
If you complain too much they ban you to the Gulag!
@krueger said:
Many of the coin organizations we use and depend on have at times and more so lately have become ivory towers of
Dictatorships. Disgregarding the observations and comments from people outside their bubble that have vastly more experience and knowledge then they have. The community experts ( such as Mr. Feld) are treated as know nothings.
I have had experience with such first hand more than a few times. After 50 plus years collecting my specialty i am treated as I know nothing they are the experts. Their mistakes sometimes are glaring and show their lack of knowledge / competence, yet they continue to reject outside correction comments disrespectively.
If you complain too much they ban you to the Gulag!
It's ignorant arrogance over expertise. There's a lot of that going around these days.
@Barbercoin said:
If I were eBay, and I’m not, I would employ a staff of professionals from across the board in various disciplines. They can afford it. These advisors would do just as Mark has done. They would weigh in as professionals on obvious and egregious listings. Not as full time employees just as concerned patrons of the hobby.
Yes, this is a pie in the sky idea but, imagine how much cleaner the eBay market “could” be? Maybe this idea had previously been studied and subsequently been voted down, I don’t know. I’m just brainstorming ways to improve a venue we all are familiar with.
My 2c. Please don’t kill me.
John
Whenever someone notes a company "can afford" something (support staff, experts, etc), I just shake my head. Nothing directed at you, John, but I have heard that a lot over the years and, working in certain companies that I did work in, some could REALLY afford certain things that would make it better for customers but they didn't.
The reason was because of the "bean counters". Unless there was profit to be made, they put as little effort into certain areas as possible. And then, only if there were a huge negative impact that was quantifiable.
So, it's no surprise that ebay doesn't do something like that. Best someone could hope for would be a free "citizens group of experts" that they vet and have help out.
Otherwise, they honestly don't care. Even if some of the rank and file employees care, they aren't the ones making the decision...those people don't care.
I wonder if anyone involved in running eBay could be criminally charged for facilitating the import of counterfeit coins? A long shot, i know, but on some level I'd kind of like to see it happen.
Shame on eBay! The only way that I will ever buy a coin on eBay, these days, is if it is in a newer NGC slab or gold shield PCGS slab, so that I may cross reference seller images with TPGS database images.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Atcarroll said:
I wonder if anyone involved in running eBay could be criminally charged for facilitating the import of counterfeit coins? A long shot, i know, but on some level I'd kind of like to see it happen.
Let's not forget how eBay executives were prosecuted for criminal conduct against bloggers; maybe they learned their lesson on that but they apparently do not want to be fully responsible regarding their business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
@burfle23 said:
Went through the new process with decent results...
At least a dozen times I've reported obvious counterfeit coins to be informed later by eBay that there was nothing wrong with these auctions. So, I watch people getting ripped off for many hundreds of dollars. Ebay sucks these days.
@burfle23 said:
Went through the new process with decent results...
At least a dozen times I've reported obvious counterfeit coins to be informed later by eBay that there was nothing wrong with these auctions. So, I watch people getting ripped off for many hundreds of dollars. Ebay sucks these days.
Have to wonder among these Rip offs how many potential collectors will be lost. Not a good look.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Bring back telephone operators. People should not be allowed to dial the numbers themselves. We should also ban self service gas stations (Hello, New Jersey). And stop with digital newspapers. Let's get those delivery boys out there again.
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Bring back telephone operators. People should not be allowed to dial the numbers themselves. We should also ban self service gas stations (Hello, New Jersey). And stop with digital newspapers. Let's get those delivery boys out there again.
You forgot to mention gas pump jockeys.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Bring back telephone operators. People should not be allowed to dial the numbers themselves. We should also ban self service gas stations (Hello, New Jersey). And stop with digital newspapers. Let's get those delivery boys out there again.
Perhaps our valued Host would be willing to have their Legal Department contact eBay's Legal Department and discuss with them the problem of counterfeit coins and/or counterfeit slabs in general, and explain to them that many concerned collectors, some of them members of the CU Forums, are trying to help alleviate the problem by reporting bogus listings to eBay.
Perhaps eBay's Legal Department is not aware that eBay's default setting appears to be to assume that any coin in any name brand slab is automatically genuine, thereby creating potential liability for eBay in the future.
Moderator?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Perhaps our valued Host would be willing to have their Legal Department contact eBay's Legal Department and discuss with them the problem of counterfeit coins and/or counterfeit slabs in general, and explain to them that many concerned collectors, some of them members of the CU Forums, are trying to help alleviate the problem by reporting bogus listings to eBay.
Perhaps eBay's Legal Department is not aware that eBay's default setting appears to be to assume that any coin in any name brand slab is automatically genuine, thereby creating potential liability for eBay in the future.
@MFeld said:
Earlier today, I received the below-copied email from eBay.
Most of the counterfeit coins I report are in counterfeit PCGS holders. And I don’t send reports unless I’m certain that the coins are counterfeit....
I think you should send them your resume and offer some consulting...and request an apology lol.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
It would be nice if they got rid of most of the programmers that change things ALL THE TIME. I still do not know why my searches include so many coins not related to my search criteria.
It would be nice if they got rid of most of the programmers that change things ALL THE TIME. I still do not know why my searches include so many coins not related to my search criteria.
I am LOLing at your comment (but not at you), because, while not a software developer (code monkey), I worked in a software company for years and your statements hit home.
There are literally tons of people whose job it is to change things, not keep existing things running well. If they don't constantly "improve", even if the improvisation is NOT an improvement for end users, then they are devalued in the job and may be gone. If they do change things and call it an improvement, they get promoted, more money, more stocks, etc.
In high tech/software areas, like in many companies, there is value in NEW and revenue generating, but not in older, sustaining, areas.
Ebays stance on this reminds me of a situation where one goes to a B+M coin shop. And with good intentions, notices a counterfeit coin for sale in a case. Notifying the owner of same he in all likelihood would show you the door. Just someone protecting their turf. Some shop owners are territorial in this regard. Do not want someone advising them on how they sell their wares.
But then again they may very well look forward to an expert opinion on the coin in question. You never know.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Ebays stance on this reminds me of a situation where one goes to a B+M coin shop. And with good intentions, notices a counterfeit coin for sale in a case. Notifying the owner of same he in all likelihood would show you the door. Just someone protecting their turf. Some shop owners are territorial in this regard. Do not want someone advising them on how they sell their wares.
But then again they may very well look forward to an expert opinion on the coin in question. You never know.
I've been tossed out of a few coin shops over the years, usually by dealers ripping off customers in my presence, like offering melt for a legit 16-D Mercury dime. Not for pointing out altered or counterfeit coins, though.
It helps if there are other customers in the shop who are curious about seeing faked or altered coins in-hand. It's difficult to toss someone out when they and their shop "find" are the focus of everyone's attention.
I had another such experience recently at a new coin shop I visited. The new dealer had two SLH's on display, one was a nice looking 1876-CC half that had been reengraved. Fortunately, there were no other customers in the shop at the time when he asked for my opinion of the coin. He seemed appreciative, if not embarrassed.
Hello greatbasincoins,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-187259682718
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 296785366585 1878-CC $1 Morgan Silver Dollar Uncirculated
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
@AUandAG said:
I just tried the question mark route:
Hello greatbasincoins,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-187259682718
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 296785366585 1878-CC $1 Morgan Silver Dollar Uncirculated
@AUandAG said:
I just tried the question mark route:
Hello greatbasincoins,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-187259682718
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 296785366585 1878-CC $1 Morgan Silver Dollar Uncirculated
i would report it but the photo is a genuine coin
Seller sells fake (he's in Hong Kong) and uses real images. Very deceptive but no way to tell ebay that.
sad
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
@rec78 said:
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Bring back telephone operators. People should not be allowed to dial the numbers themselves. We should also ban self service gas stations (Hello, New Jersey). And stop with digital newspapers. Let's get those delivery boys out there again.
Yet gas in New Jersey is cheaper than all the surrounding states.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Same. I'm done trying to help. They developed a system that crowd-sourced quality control and then dismiss and disregard the reports. Screw them.
Mark, What do the TPGs do to protect the brand after they slab the coin? Do they have investigators? Is the policing up to us? VWoA paid bounty to people who reported violation of copyright and trade mark rights.
I wouldn’t even say that they are putting faith in their AI but more so that it’s simply a “check the box” exercise for them so that they can say that they have prevention measures in place.
As far as I’m concerned their AI might as well be replaced with a Microsoft outlook rule that auto generates a message saying that AI reviewed the report and found nothing wrong.
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone post a response on here saying that AI determined the listing to be a fake lol.
No, but this is what they look like:
I'm not a lawyer, but just a couple of weeks ago, this happened: "eBay listings for banned chemicals shielded by Section 230, judge rules // DOJ can’t force eBay to remove environmentally harmful product listings." -- https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/10/ebay-defeats-doj-lawsuit-fighting-sale-of-toxic-pesticides-deadly-chemicals/
I can't imagine eBay would therefore have any liability for counterfeit goods either, as long as current law remains.
Pathetic.
You can tell them that the members on the PCGS coin forum give you unwavering support in your attempts to root out numismatic fraud! The burden is on them especially if there has been a very high percentage confirmation of your reports that are done without compensation.
I would think that eBay would have some liability as an accessory to fraud if they permit fakes to be peddled as authentic coins, the reason after all that the grading services came about in the first place, not specifically grading. I'm sure their legal department dictates many of their policies to maximize profits and minimize lawsuits; they must be really afraid of class actions.
Many of the coin organizations we use and depend on have at times and more so lately have become ivory towers of
Dictatorships. Disgregarding the observations and comments from people outside their bubble that have vastly more experience and knowledge then they have. The community experts ( such as Mr. Feld) are treated as know nothings.
I have had experience with such first hand more than a few times. After 50 plus years collecting my specialty i am treated as I know nothing they are the experts. Their mistakes sometimes are glaring and show their lack of knowledge / competence, yet they continue to reject outside correction comments disrespectively.
If you complain too much they ban you to the Gulag!
It's ignorant arrogance over expertise. There's a lot of that going around these days.
Whenever someone notes a company "can afford" something (support staff, experts, etc), I just shake my head. Nothing directed at you, John, but I have heard that a lot over the years and, working in certain companies that I did work in, some could REALLY afford certain things that would make it better for customers but they didn't.
The reason was because of the "bean counters". Unless there was profit to be made, they put as little effort into certain areas as possible. And then, only if there were a huge negative impact that was quantifiable.
So, it's no surprise that ebay doesn't do something like that. Best someone could hope for would be a free "citizens group of experts" that they vet and have help out.
Otherwise, they honestly don't care. Even if some of the rank and file employees care, they aren't the ones making the decision...those people don't care.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Just another example of automated customer no service. Get this all of the time workwise when dealing with various government agencies.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It's like reporting fraudulent vendors on Facebook; they ALWAYS say that the ad "doesn't violate our community standards."
Apparently, these behemouths care much more about their profits than their customers being defrauded. Who knew?
I wonder if anyone involved in running eBay could be criminally charged for facilitating the import of counterfeit coins? A long shot, i know, but on some level I'd kind of like to see it happen.
I'm curious @MFeld how many removal notices you have received?
Shame on eBay! The only way that I will ever buy a coin on eBay, these days, is if it is in a newer NGC slab or gold shield PCGS slab, so that I may cross reference seller images with TPGS database images.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Yes likely a form letter automatic reply.
Isn't there a consumer watchdog agency that can approach ebay directly with the holder evidence and other abuses? I thought there was a non-profit.
No good deed goes unpunished.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That was the first such message I've received.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A real long shot.
When someone at E-Bay checks out a report of a fraudulent coin do they simply use some sort of AI technology?
I always wondered whether E-bay had industry experts they could check with?
I guess the bright side is that there might be an opportunity for a grading co to sell their opinion on the authenticity of a slab?
Sad.
Went through the new process with decent results...
Let's not forget how eBay executives were prosecuted for criminal conduct against bloggers; maybe they learned their lesson on that but they apparently do not want to be fully responsible regarding their business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
At least a dozen times I've reported obvious counterfeit coins to be informed later by eBay that there was nothing wrong with these auctions. So, I watch people getting ripped off for many hundreds of dollars. Ebay sucks these days.
Have to wonder among these Rip offs how many potential collectors will be lost. Not a good look.
upload supporting documents!
there is hope!
eBay is clearly trying to remove all human contact and rely totally on AI with the least amount of working employees as possible. Getting to 100% computer run company with no personal employees is not possible at the moment but could be in the near future. It is getting harder and harder to talk to an actual ebay employee to help solve a problem that may not be an everyday situation.
Those striking dock workers were concerned with the same thing,automation taking their jobs.
Bring back telephone operators. People should not be allowed to dial the numbers themselves. We should also ban self service gas stations (Hello, New Jersey). And stop with digital newspapers. Let's get those delivery boys out there again.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/326301191808
submitted with marked up supporting images
let's see if this works
Their policy was updated to read : ”Rules were made to be broken and we are here to facilitate that “.
You forgot to mention gas pump jockeys.
Actual, I did mention them.
Perhaps our valued Host would be willing to have their Legal Department contact eBay's Legal Department and discuss with them the problem of counterfeit coins and/or counterfeit slabs in general, and explain to them that many concerned collectors, some of them members of the CU Forums, are trying to help alleviate the problem by reporting bogus listings to eBay.
Perhaps eBay's Legal Department is not aware that eBay's default setting appears to be to assume that any coin in any name brand slab is automatically genuine, thereby creating potential liability for eBay in the future.
Moderator?
@PCGS_Moderator
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well, my latest badge of honor; no better with the new Bay process...
keep posting ebay listings to report and together we'll get that ratio up
I think you should send them your resume and offer some consulting...and request an apology lol.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
It would be nice if they got rid of most of the programmers that change things ALL THE TIME. I still do not know why my searches include so many coins not related to my search criteria.
my last report was done by a csr
i gave details an apparently they are more knowledgeable than obvious clues
I am LOLing at your comment (but not at you), because, while not a software developer (code monkey), I worked in a software company for years and your statements hit home.
There are literally tons of people whose job it is to change things, not keep existing things running well. If they don't constantly "improve", even if the improvisation is NOT an improvement for end users, then they are devalued in the job and may be gone. If they do change things and call it an improvement, they get promoted, more money, more stocks, etc.
In high tech/software areas, like in many companies, there is value in NEW and revenue generating, but not in older, sustaining, areas.
It's really sad
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Ebays stance on this reminds me of a situation where one goes to a B+M coin shop. And with good intentions, notices a counterfeit coin for sale in a case. Notifying the owner of same he in all likelihood would show you the door. Just someone protecting their turf. Some shop owners are territorial in this regard. Do not want someone advising them on how they sell their wares.
But then again they may very well look forward to an expert opinion on the coin in question. You never know.
Pure Trum> @BLUEJAYWAY said:
I've been tossed out of a few coin shops over the years, usually by dealers ripping off customers in my presence, like offering melt for a legit 16-D Mercury dime. Not for pointing out altered or counterfeit coins, though.
It helps if there are other customers in the shop who are curious about seeing faked or altered coins in-hand. It's difficult to toss someone out when they and their shop "find" are the focus of everyone's attention.
I had another such experience recently at a new coin shop I visited. The new dealer had two SLH's on display, one was a nice looking 1876-CC half that had been reengraved. Fortunately, there were no other customers in the shop at the time when he asked for my opinion of the coin. He seemed appreciative, if not embarrassed.
I just tried the question mark route:
Hello greatbasincoins,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-187259682718
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 296785366585 1878-CC $1 Morgan Silver Dollar Uncirculated
i would report it but the photo is a genuine coin
Seller sells fake (he's in Hong Kong) and uses real images. Very deceptive but no way to tell ebay that.
sad
bob
Yet gas in New Jersey is cheaper than all the surrounding states.
Is there even any point in reporting this? It has none of the obverse characteristics of a 1922 "No D," but it is "certified" so it must be genuine!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256706589683?_skw=1922+lincoln+cent&itmmeta=01JC683TPRH0ZHHTRZSTDA302T&hash=item3bc4e7b3f3:g:J9gAAOSwfhVnLPyx&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx+KZ9MfhVJKnsPFyFzp+Sj9fac9h1gk62ZEfqDvYmmwGDZUFAEZKYiVmN4cmg5OQ14FPnzPVC1him3Ryg8jQ8Nmac5gZrctYa2beseua3kw9nIl8ZlK9ck34bMsx3Px+RQuLhH35M8rKL1vj3iF5mcEGuvAsrybr/4UaLF+QLWZDaLchZRG/qJ5tGHWlanrFIakHQ04oIP9yZS44uTL7FN638l5tJ50XTqYD0AtcNiroOpz7teaXbHpt7wss132Abe0U2qCICxBkmbenez4X1T1DGcGGRmwKbfN427Eo7rIUoraGuPmZXIw==|tkp:Bk9SR7qrj8jhZA
I report such listings and state that the coin and the holder are counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s scary that stuff out there - CF material in TPG holders.