Anyone have Experience with NGC Guarantee? - Update!
ProofCollection
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I have a coin I may try to have reviewed under the NGC guarantee. I've had a few coins reviewed and favorable results from the PCGS guarantee but the reviews took 6-8 months to resolve. I'm not sure what part of the process would require it to take so long, so I'm hoping NGC would be a little quicker. I'm wondering if anyone here has had a coin reviewed by NGC and how that went?
I'd rather not get into the details of the issue at the moment but the coin is a Morgan dollar with an MS grade that in many people's opinion has wear and should probably be AU58, and there is a significant price guide difference.
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Single experience was probably too many years ago to be relevant. Grading from low MS to high AU is often a challenge. Good luck.
I have a Matte Proof 1913 Type 1 Buffalo Nickel. Dave Bowers wrote that some pieces in certification holders that had been graded Proof were really Unc. His test was that the Matte Proof coins were bright on the edge, like a Proof, with the dull surfaces on both sides.
My piece was in one of the old holders where you could not see the edge. NGC rechecked the coin, confirmed that it is a Proof, and put in their then new holder which shows the edges at no charge. That has been my only experience.
Had a 35S walker I bought via mediocre photos that graded 64, that in hand was a 62 at best.
Sent it to NGC for their grade review.
Their solution was to soak it in a dip and reholder it as a 64. Which resulted in a dipped out and still overgraded coin. Granted this was probably ~15 years ago, but left a bad taste. Hopefully you’ll have better luck.
I have sold some NGC coins and the guarantee of a tougher sale was honored by the buyers
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Did not trust NGC (after JA sold it to Mark Salzman)….uhh Salzberg)
Yah I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on a slider in an UNC holder to downgrade and be returned with a check. From any TPG let alone NGC, being loose in that range is kind of their thing.
That price difference between the grades is most likely why it was a NGC holder in the first place.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
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---Update
So I have the coin back in hand with PCGS notes that they consider it Cleaned. I had assumed it was wear, but instead they see cleaning. Because NGC policy states that "Light, non-destructive cleaning, particularly when found on older coins, may still permit numeric grading" I am sure there is no chance of a successful claim since that describes the situation and the coin is likely within policy. I had always wondered about this but finally found it spelled out on their website once I looked. https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/details-grading/
Now that I know this is their official policy I will not be taking chances on NGC coins any more.
ma cleaning is a different issue from a difference in a straight numerical grade
Why avoid NGC coins altogether? It sounds like you have a good eye and know what you are doing.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like you bought the coin for AU58 money, and were hoping to make a score by getting NGC to buy it from you for MS money. What else would explain your having not one, but several successful adventures with PCGS reconsideration?
If so, the fact that they are one step ahead of you, and created a policy to support the grades they place on the holder is no reason for a knowledgeable collector to avoid their slabs. Buy the coin, not the holder still applies. Why avoid anything if you know what you are doing, and the coin is priced right?
No, that's not the case at all. I paid full market price at a Stack's auction. The cleaning hairlines were not visible or identifiable in the pictures or mentioned in description. On an MS60 the surfaces can be pretty rough. I did not see it in person before buying.
This is just an example of the standards of one company vs the other. Grading is an art, one person can look at it and think it deserves a straight grade, one person can call it cleaned, but in the end the market will determine the price.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
What difference does it make whether the policy is official? Both NGC and PCGS straight-grade coins that have been cleaned. It’s just a matter of how significant they feel the cleaning is and whether to assign a details-grade, instead.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"Light, non-destructive cleaning, particularly when found on older coins, may still permit numeric grading" is a policy at every TPG, whether stated or not. There is no TPG that only straight-grades totally uncleaned coins.
What's more, a 60 grade can be expected to be technically unworn but borderline Details. That's basically what the grade is for. At that point you likely have a coin that would get called Details some percent of the time if sent to either service.
Precisely.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I feel the difference is that NGC Review process reviews the coin against their standards. They have a published standard of giving numerical grades to cleaned coins. They will deny my claim based on their policy, I don't even need to try, waste of time.
While I don't like the policy and it makes it hard to buy NGC coins in the future, I do appreciate the directness and clarity and which I had known about this earlier.
As other posters have explained, regardless of what the policy states or how "official" it appears, NO grading service is ever going to cut you a check on a guaranty resubmission because of a cleaning. If you have a cleaned coin in a PCGS holder, it's not because they made a mistake.
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Woah! Sorry to hear that. That sucks. Does Stack's not allow returns on internet auctions? Heritage does. So does GC.
Maybe the lesson should be to avoid Stack's auctions when you cannot examine the coin in person, rather than avoiding NGC slabs.
I get what you're saying. Yeah, really my policy on NGC slabs has to remain because it's not a problem for me with PCGS slabs. I want coins for my registry sets and as long as PCGS will accept it, it's good enough for me, even if PCGS allows some light cleaning (and as someone said above, all TPGs do). So because my goal is to get everything into PCGS plastic, buying NGC coins and relying on them being up to PCGS standards is unrealistic. I don't buy a ton of NGC coins anyway, and I've never relied on their grades or PL/DMPL designations because for those I feel I trust my judgement. But I did trust that their assessment of AU vs MS and Details vs non-Details was reliable as I am not as good at identifying those things.
pictures?
Just my 2c for what’s it’s worth but when a collector transcends caring more about the grade on the holder to caring more about the coin it’s self their enjoyment and engagement in the hobby takes a major step forward. The only standard should be your own.
Not that we all must not be cognitive of the grade on the holder but it should really only come into play with one’s price valuation and exit strategy for the coin so the buyer can measure the opportunity presented weighed against possible other opportunities to purchase similar.
If you like the coin who cares what holder it’s in even if it is in a PCGS gen holder. Now if you over paid for a PCGS gen holder that’s a different story but we have all made mistakes and that is where knowing the exit comes into play . Knowing how to buy and exit and what potential coins have is the true skill needed, swearing off an entire segment of the coins on the floor will do nothing to expand your collection and only make you miss opportunities esp for rarer stuff. Yes i find less opportunities with NGC coins but I still look at all of them. If you’re paying full auction prices one should really know the coin is going to be a hit because after crossovers and what not you’re most likely be skewed a percentage over what any exit strat could provide. If being buried hampers the hobby learn to buy better, if quality is most important…. Learn to buy better.
There is no magic formula other than knowing how to grade, knowing what stuff trades for at different levels of retail and knowing how easy and often they trade.
GL OP
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Fantastic post @Crypto
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I had a few guarantee submissions with general responsiveness; a call from Scott Heller regarding how they saw the situation; one they had no problem with; another downgraded from DPL to PL with a credit toward future grading. Much longer with PCGS. Neither services really pay out much money unless it is a major snafu.
Yeah, but who is @Cypto and what are his qualifications? After all, has he ever seen an original red Proof copper coin?
Crypto is a long tenured and very bright numismatist. That being said, it's completely irrelevant. A great post is a great post and, if the information rings true, the source doesn't particularly matter.
TBH Alan, it sounds like you're trying to start an argument.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Don’t engage the alts lermish.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
You probably just misspoke, but sometimes TPGs miss cleaning, sometimes they misjudge the extent of the cleaning, and sometimes, in the worst cases, they do buy those coins off the market. But it’s true that the fact that a coin has been cleaned rarely results in a TPG feeling the need to pay off on its guarantee.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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Yea I could have phrased better for sure. While they miss some, the majority of the time the cleaning is excused as "market acceptable". The emphasis was that trying to get NGC or PCGS to write a check because of a cleaning is a herculean task, unless its some scenario where the cleaning was missed and wasnt factored into the grade.
If they did, whats to stop someone from buying the worst coins off the floor that they can get for under bid, and then trying to profit off of a payout?
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What's to stop someone is the refusal to pay out an amount that results in a profit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In my experience, the TPGs ask for an invoice and will reimburse that amount. If you don't have one, they really lowball you. For instance, PCGS is not making price-guide offers. It's not likely to be a money-making endeavor unless you get a fantastic deal on the coin.
Hairlines, wiped, dipped. Market graded 58>55
Coin prices can fluctuate over time. The value on the invoice may be inaccurate to its current value. I can't imagine that it the value listed on an invoice was $1,000, and the coin now has a value of say $700, that the TPG would pay the invoice price of $1k.
I'm sure there are limits and it must be reasonable, but that wasn't really the point. If you think you're going to wander a coin show and buy all of the over-graded and grading mistakes and make a profit, you probably won't. This scenario implies a recent invoice. Note the one of the TPG's options is to replace the coin which is probably the most favorable scenario but even then the margins are probably not fantastic.
In addition to that, it might take a long time to get the replacement coin and/or you might not like it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’ve purchased a coin in an NGC slab that had “something” on the coin. I submitted it and NGC conserved the coin and sent it back to me. The coin looked good I was happy,
I purchased a coin below greysheet in a PCGS slab that was not returnable. When I got the coin it had corrosion so I tried the same with PCGS. PCGS just returned the coin to me with no explanation. I ended up breaking it out and using coin care on it. I resubmitted it to NGC and it came back a grade lower. I wasn’t happy with the grade but I was happy no more corrosion. Also cost me more to get it conserved and regraded.
So if you buy a coin and it’s not what’s on the grade to me NGC has a better guarantee and will make it right. I highly doubt PCGS will do that.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins