I have some questions.
Married2Coins
Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
Why are 1965 SMS coins called Specimens? What exactly is a Specimen coin? Is there a definition someplace? I'm an older collector and before PCGS was started, that term was virtually unheard of. Now, everything is a "Specimen" if it has a funky surface. I don't think the Mint uses the term but I could be wrong. Could it be three decade old TPGS marketing ploy for new collectors?
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A "specimen" coin is something between a business strike released for circulation and a proof.
The specimen was not made for circulation, but does not have the special qualities of a proof (polished planchet, increased strike pressure or multiple strikes).
In 1965-67, the US Mint did not make proof sets, but made Specimen [oops, actually Special] Mint Sets instead.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1965-25c-sms/5997
I respectfully thank you but my coins are labeled SPECIAL Mint Set on the blue box from the Mint and not SPECIMEN anything.
I just looked up the definition of "specimen" in the dictionary. One definition has to do with urine and I'm beginning to think that may apply to this "specimen" nonsense (IMHO) by the TPGS's. I wonder who started it? An auction house, a coin dealer, a TPGS. I'll bet it happened so long ago that it's origin is lost in history and that word has become market acceptable for anything struck by the Mint different from the norm like those limited editions of Kennedy half dollars and Jefferson nickels. I note that the word "specimen" is used differently for minerals, stamps, insects, checks, stocks, etc. I wonder if there are specimen baseball cards?
Specimen these days is whatever you can get into a SP holder - which is a lot of stuff.
True Specimens would be defined something like this:
Specimen - a coin struck for a special purpose at any mint, also from new and specially prepared dies, but possibly without the same special care given to the planchets, and with the intent of producing a special coin, but without the proper equipment or recognition by the coiner or engraver. The coin is not authorized by the director.
Coin Photographer.
I like this. Seems this is very true.
BTW, I read somewhere that you are a young and very intelligent numismatist.
Remind me not to ask you what you think the BM grade modifier stands for! :-)
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
🫢Please consider yourself reminded.
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From PCGS
While each of these SMS coins was struck with a special (SP) finish, some of the nicest pieces appear virtually indistinguishable from cameo proofs.
In the case of SMS coins SP is Special not Specimen.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
You are a five star member of great experience so I have no clue what you are posting; however, I see another five star expert got the joke. (?)
Thank you. That makes sense. Branch Mint Proofs are also special so the TPGS must use "SP" for them also. Anyone know?
I want to be clear - I'm not even in the same realm as @MFeld. He is a numismatist of vast experience and wide good repute. We're lucky to have guys like him on the board, dropping a little knowledge.
I'm just a smart-aleck who was making a scatological joke. But the first time I saw the "BM" (and if I recall correctly, it was in front of the grade - like, a classic great old coin was graded "BM-64" or something?) I thought that was a horrible thing to do. Now all I can seem to find is the BM as an add-on, like "FB" for full bands or "PL" for prooflike, etc. So maybe I was confused about it being up front of the numeric grade.
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
Getting back to the definition of "Specimen" and "Proof", these terms have had specific meaning in the world of currency for about 150-200 years, maybe more. In the early 1800s the terms were somewhat interchangeable. Witness proof sheets of currency from the ABN archives produced 1815-20 with "Specimen" written in the signature blocks. After the Civil War, ABN started using a "Specimen" overprint only on notes printed on both sides on regular bank note paper and with no or all zero serial numbers. Specimens were the same as issued pieces except the serial number (and sometimes signatures) and which indicates that it was never properly issued. "Proofs' were usually single sided impressions, usually on thin, porous "India" paper, made to check and confirm designs and plates.
Both proofs and specimens of currency were not made for circulation or collectors, so they differ somewhat from coins in that respect. However, just as pattern coins, not made for collectors, many are rare and highly prized by collectors today as they are the only form in which some designs still exist.
And getting back to the 1965 SMS and "Specimen" coins, I haven't seen anyone answer THAT question yet. What's the story with 1965 PCGS cent and Half Dollar certified as "Specimen"?
Also from PCGS.
PCGS uses the “SP” prefix (in place of “MS” or “PR”) to designate this genre of specimen or special-strike coins, and it includes some spectacularly interesting and attractive pieces.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Perhaps they should consider rethinking a confusing policy as you have equated the words "specimen" and "special"
to the same coin in spite of a member posting "SP" = SPECIAL. The 1965 cent is NOT a specimen. If PCGS uses "SP" to distinguish "special" coins, then the 1965 cent is a special coin. I own several coins just as special. nevertheless. the chance of me getting an "SP" designation for one would be a miracle!
So which is the truth? Specimen or Special. You can't have it both ways - unless to are the grading company. How do other TPGS use "SP?"
NGC uses MS for SMS coins like PCGS did at one time. Maybe PCGS should use SF, as in Special Finish, for SMS coins.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
So, a Specimen is not a Special, is not a Proof, is not minted for circulation or collectors, but can represent a coin with a matte finish, and according to Apmex:
"Modern US coins produced with unusual finished like a matte finish have also been called specimen coins. Some specimen coins are labeled with SP after they have been graded by NGC or PCGS. If your coin does not have this, determining whether it is a specimen can be challenging. While specimen coins are struck with greater care and attention to detail than circulation coins, there is no standard for specimen coins."
And according to the Royal Canadian Mint:
"Specimen coin
These coins are higher quality than uncirculated coins – the finish combines brilliant and frosted relief (raised foreground) over a lined field (background). We are the only mint in the world that offers this finish."
Never realized how confusing this term is becoming.
I looked up the term in the Red Book. It wasn't there.
SP63
SP67
SP67 CAM
SP67 DCAM
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
A pair of ‘65 sms coins
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
You're being too literal. The SP designation, per PCGS, stands for "specimen". In recent years, they've used it as a catch all for "special" strikes that are not strictly MS or PR.
Such things are defined on their website.
OK, thanks. It is a marketing ploy with several meanings. I always felt the Canadian usage was confusing.