@2dueces said:
About pitching
Tim MacCarver once said about Bob Gibson.
“He’s the luckiest pitcher I’ve ever seen. He always pitches when the other team doesn’t score any runs.”
No bearing on this thread but upping my post total
@Darin said:
So steroids have been illegal to use in the United States since 1970 unless you have exempt status as a mlb player since the rules of baseball trump the laws of the US?
Craig is this correct?
Darin - they were, and still are, illegal to use without a prescription. But not all steroids, because the word "steroid" is pretty generic.
In case you missed it the first time.
This would include cortisone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
The simple fact is that you can't renegotiate the collective bargaining agreement every time something illegal is declared.
When you are comitting a criminal act, you can't just say "it's OK officer, my workplace doesn't specifically say this is wrong".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Darin said:
So steroids have been illegal to use in the United States since 1970 unless you have exempt status as a mlb player since the rules of baseball trump the laws of the US?
Craig is this correct?
Darin - they were, and still are, illegal to use without a prescription. But not all steroids, because the word "steroid" is pretty generic.
In case you missed it the first time.
This would include cortisone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
The simple fact is that you can't renegotiate the collective bargaining agreement every time something illegal is declared.
When you are comitting a criminal act, you can't just say "it's OK officer, my workplace doesn't specifically say this is wrong".
I didn't miss anything related to cortisone or other corticosteroids. They are not illegal to use in the United States and haven't ever been. You can buy it at Target...
@Darin said:
So steroids have been illegal to use in the United States since 1970 unless you have exempt status as a mlb player since the rules of baseball trump the laws of the US?
Craig is this correct?
Darin - they were, and still are, illegal to use without a prescription. But not all steroids, because the word "steroid" is pretty generic.
In case you missed it the first time.
This would include cortisone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
The simple fact is that you can't renegotiate the collective bargaining agreement every time something illegal is declared.
When you are comitting a criminal act, you can't just say "it's OK officer, my workplace doesn't specifically say this is wrong".
I didn't miss anything related to cortisone or other corticosteroids. They are not illegal to use in the United States and haven't ever been. You can buy it at Target...
All of this information is freely available to anyone who doesn't want to say incorrect things on the interwebs. Good luck walking that one back!
Simple answer; (I know you don't like them) the substances being discussed were illegal to posses without a doctor's prescription.
Steroids were illegal in 1970 and then it became more specific in 1990. Ignorance or disagreement of the law are not valid excuses. Bonds admitted to using the "Clear and Cream". He said he was not told what it really was. Ha. Ha. Right Barry.
Using them in ANY workplace environment was illegal weather or not employees were specifically told they couldn't use them.
Bonds was a superb all around player before he mutated himself into the incredible bulk. He was not capable of what he did later without chemically enhancing his body. His records are a joke, along with McGwire's and Sosa's among others.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Darin said:
So steroids have been illegal to use in the United States since 1970 unless you have exempt status as a mlb player since the rules of baseball trump the laws of the US?
Craig is this correct?
Darin - they were, and still are, illegal to use without a prescription. But not all steroids, because the word "steroid" is pretty generic.
In case you missed it the first time.
This would include cortisone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
The simple fact is that you can't renegotiate the collective bargaining agreement every time something illegal is declared.
When you are comitting a criminal act, you can't just say "it's OK officer, my workplace doesn't specifically say this is wrong".
I didn't miss anything related to cortisone or other corticosteroids. They are not illegal to use in the United States and haven't ever been. You can buy it at Target...
All of this information is freely available to anyone who doesn't want to say incorrect things on the interwebs. Good luck walking that one back!
Simple answer; (I know you don't like them) the substances being discussed were illegal to posses without a doctor's prescription.
Steroids were illegal in 1970 and then it became more specific in 1990. Ignorance or disagreement of the law are not valid excuses. Bonds admitted to using the "Clear and Cream". He said he was not told what it really was. Ha. Ha. Right Barry.
Using them in ANY workplace environment was illegal weather or not employees were specifically told they couldn't use them.
Bonds was a superb all around player before he mutated himself into the incredible bulk. He was not capable of what he did later without chemically enhancing his body. His records are a joke, along with McGwire's and Sosa's among others.
I don’t remember what was in the cream but I believe it was some form of anabolic steroid. As far as hgh that isn’t a controlled substance and it’s not actually illegal to use. It was banned by mlb in 2006. I don’t believe bonds wasn’t breaking the rules of mlb and violating the law in the us. But he was never going to get in trouble for using steroids with the government. He was going to get in trouble for lying about balco. But I made my stance clear on how i view it I hope.
Sorry. I meant 2011 with regard to hgh. And as I said I agree with the perspective that he was acting in violation of mlb’s rules prior to 2006 by his own admission, unknowingly or not.
I don't disagree. Anytime Bonds comes up in discussion there's a flurry of misinformation.
>
>
Yes, exactly, he was a 90's baseball player.
From his rookie season of 1986 until 1999, Bonds hit 30 doubles, 32 HR and stole 33 bases per year. BA .288, OBP .410, SLG 968. OPS, 963. Absolutely fabulous numbers.
For the next 5 seasons he averaged 52 HR, batted .339, OBP .535, SLG .781, OPS 1.316.
From ESPN news services;
This all would seem, to me, to be accurate information.
IMO, Bonds was jealous of the attention Sosa and McGwire got during the 1998 season and decided (again, from ESPN news services);
I think it's very clear that Bonds began knowingly using illegal drugs during the late 90's to early 2000's and it helped his hitting performance tremendously.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I'm not saying any of that is incorrect. It just doesn't matter to me when considering how good Bonds or other presumed or admitted or proven PED users because I look at it as always being part of the game. If we're talking about character, then I wouldn't be lining up to sing the praises of guys like Bonds.
Here's what I said.
I can see both sides of this argument, though I would side with agreeing that "Steroids" were not allowed by the rules since 1971. I could easily make a successful argument for either side. The problem I have with the whole debate about Steroids and other PEDs is that PEDs had really been a huge part of baseball since the 19th century. I'll also agree that the methods and practices with application of PEDs had really become a big business and the amount of performance improvement from these targeted cocktails was not easily dismissed as negligible as had been historically. But, just like I don't care about testosterone & amphetamines from the past, I also don't care about steroids and human growth hormone with regard to measuring a player's performance. I don't care because we have tools to measure a player to the mean. It wasn't fair, and if MLB wasn't completely aware of it, and it was only a handful of players, I would say those players should be banned. But MLB knew - and it wasn't a few - so sure... naughty boys, but I look past those transgressions just like I look past the transgressions of the greatest players of past eras. I'm also fine if people have a different read on the situation. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right how I view it.
I think MLB is culpable here and these players shouldn't take all the blame. MLB should have done something about steroids in baseball before the fickle sentiment of the mob turned. It's pretty ridiculous to me.
@bgr said:
I'm not saying any of that is incorrect. It just doesn't matter to me when considering how good Bonds or other presumed or admitted or proven PED users because I look at it as always being part of the game. If we're talking about character, then I wouldn't be lining up to sing the praises of guys like Bonds.
I think MLB is culpable here and these players shouldn't take all the blame. MLB should have done something about steroids in baseball before the fickle sentiment of the mob turned. It's pretty ridiculous to me.
Exactly how I see it. Happened in the NFL as well and no one cares.
@bgr said:
I'm not saying any of that is incorrect. It just doesn't matter to me when considering how good Bonds or other presumed or admitted or proven PED users because I look at it as always being part of the game. If we're talking about character, then I wouldn't be lining up to sing the praises of guys like Bonds.
Here's what I said.
I can see both sides of this argument, though I would side with agreeing that "Steroids" were not allowed by the rules since 1971. I could easily make a successful argument for either side. The problem I have with the whole debate about Steroids and other PEDs is that PEDs had really been a huge part of baseball since the 19th century. I'll also agree that the methods and practices with application of PEDs had really become a big business and the amount of performance improvement from these targeted cocktails was not easily dismissed as negligible as had been historically. But, just like I don't care about testosterone & amphetamines from the past, I also don't care about steroids and human growth hormone with regard to measuring a player's performance. I don't care because we have tools to measure a player to the mean. It wasn't fair, and if MLB wasn't completely aware of it, and it was only a handful of players, I would say those players should be banned. But MLB knew - and it wasn't a few - so sure... naughty boys, but I look past those transgressions just like I look past the transgressions of the greatest players of past eras. I'm also fine if people have a different read on the situation. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right how I view it.
I think MLB is culpable here and these players shouldn't take all the blame. MLB should have done something about steroids in baseball before the fickle sentiment of the mob turned. It's pretty ridiculous to me.
MLB certainly knew what was going on.
That doesn't excuse the players.
edited to add; or the players union.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Maybe you missed the part of my post where Bonds' numbers went through the roof after juicing?
Maybe you missed the part where you said "No matter what the collective bargaining agreement says, they were illegal. " Taking an illegal substance is taking an illegal substance based on your own definition. Doesn't matter if it is steroids, greenies, alcohol, cocaine, etc.
You can't definitively prove that Ruth didn't benefit from his alcohol consumption which was against the laws of the US at the time. So he could have benefited from taking an illegal substance and apparently should be treated the same as Bonds.
In reality, alcohol probably didn't help Ruth hit a baseball but human bodies are amazing things. There are always outliers out there. You don't know what might benefit one person while harming another.
All that said, I put Pujols over Bonds as the best player of the 21st century thus far.
Ruth certainly didn't benefit from his overeating and drinking. His numbers were consistent during his career.
If anything his worst year, 1925 when he had major stomach problems was attributed to his bad habits.
By the way;
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I always like to reflect whenever Bonds or Rose character flaws come up that before the age of information people need to realize that there were probably hundreds of ballplayers that beat their wives or did other terrible things behind closed doors that nobody every knew
@perkdog said:
I always like to reflect whenever Bonds or Rose character flaws come up that before the age of information people need to realize that there were probably hundreds of ballplayers that beat their wives or did other terrible things behind closed doors that nobody every knew
No one's perfect.
For the most part, the people that get caught are generally the worst offenders.
Rose broke the #1 rule in baseball. Doing it as a manager is worse than if a player does it.
Bonds also really went to the maximum with his use, it became so obvious, you couldn't ignore it.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@perkdog said:
I always like to reflect whenever Bonds or Rose character flaws come up that before the age of information people need to realize that there were probably hundreds of ballplayers that beat their wives or did other terrible things behind closed doors that nobody every knew
No one's perfect.
For the most part, the people that get caught are generally the worst offenders.
Rose broke the #1 rule in baseball. Doing it as a manager is worse than if a player does it.
Bonds also really went to the maximum with his use, it became so obvious, you couldn't ignore it.
'No one's perfect'? Are you suggesting domestic violence is in the same vein as players who took PEDs?
'Went to the maximum'?
What is the 'maximum'? Are you suggesting the literal hundreds of other players who took banned substances are ok because they didn't go to the 'maximum'?
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
@perkdog said:
I always like to reflect whenever Bonds or Rose character flaws come up that before the age of information people need to realize that there were probably hundreds of ballplayers that beat their wives or did other terrible things behind closed doors that nobody every knew
With what ones that are known Chapman and Ozuna are still active players in the league. As long as you dont fail a bunch of drug tests, pedophilia/sex trafficking/gambling (unless youre too valuable), or criticize the league openly a lot you wont get demonized. Drug usage didnt start in the 90s either
For those choosing Bonds, are you including his 14 years pre-2000 as part of his performance this century? Or are you saying that 7 years of Bonds in the 2000s is better than 22 years of Pujols (or another player who played solely post-2000)? Or are you saying “I don’t care what he did as a whole, peak Barry was the best baseball player post-2000, overall stats be damned”?
@burghman said:
For those choosing Bonds, are you including his 14 years pre-2000 as part of his performance this century? Or are you saying that 7 years of Bonds in the 2000s is better than 22 years of Pujols (or another player who played solely post-2000)? Or are you saying “I don’t care what he did as a whole, peak Barry was the best baseball player post-2000, overall stats be damned”?
I think you could look at it either way. Considering only their accomplishments in the 00s or considering a players career with seasons in the 00s. I enjoyed considering both.
Peak bonds for a couple years was the best but I wouldnt have him as the best player of the 2000s. Right now its likely Pujols since Bonds just didnt play enough of his years in the 2000s. I wouldnt hate Trout or Othani being the pick either. They both put up the same prime seasons as Bonds for the century and Othani has the advantage of also being a very good pitcher as well before the TJ surgeries
Comments
In case you missed it the first time.
This would include cortisone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
The simple fact is that you can't renegotiate the collective bargaining agreement every time something illegal is declared.
When you are comitting a criminal act, you can't just say "it's OK officer, my workplace doesn't specifically say this is wrong".
Ohtani is having the 11th best offensive season of Barry Bonds career.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Thats simply not true. At the absolute worst its the 5th best and even thats to low
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I didn't miss anything related to cortisone or other corticosteroids. They are not illegal to use in the United States and haven't ever been. You can buy it at Target...
https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/c_cs_alpha.pdf
All of this information is freely available to anyone who doesn't want to say incorrect things on the interwebs. Good luck walking that one back!
Simple answer; (I know you don't like them) the substances being discussed were illegal to posses without a doctor's prescription.
Steroids were illegal in 1970 and then it became more specific in 1990. Ignorance or disagreement of the law are not valid excuses. Bonds admitted to using the "Clear and Cream". He said he was not told what it really was. Ha. Ha. Right Barry.
Using them in ANY workplace environment was illegal weather or not employees were specifically told they couldn't use them.
Bonds was a superb all around player before he mutated himself into the incredible bulk. He was not capable of what he did later without chemically enhancing his body. His records are a joke, along with McGwire's and Sosa's among others.
I don’t remember what was in the cream but I believe it was some form of anabolic steroid. As far as hgh that isn’t a controlled substance and it’s not actually illegal to use. It was banned by mlb in 2006. I don’t believe bonds wasn’t breaking the rules of mlb and violating the law in the us. But he was never going to get in trouble for using steroids with the government. He was going to get in trouble for lying about balco. But I made my stance clear on how i view it I hope.
Sorry. I meant 2011 with regard to hgh. And as I said I agree with the perspective that he was acting in violation of mlb’s rules prior to 2006 by his own admission, unknowingly or not.
Bonds is more a 90s player.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Whatever metric you use... it's debatable.
I don't disagree. Anytime Bonds comes up in discussion there's a flurry of misinformation.
>
>
Yes, exactly, he was a 90's baseball player.
From his rookie season of 1986 until 1999, Bonds hit 30 doubles, 32 HR and stole 33 bases per year. BA .288, OBP .410, SLG 968. OPS, 963. Absolutely fabulous numbers.
For the next 5 seasons he averaged 52 HR, batted .339, OBP .535, SLG .781, OPS 1.316.
From ESPN news services;
This all would seem, to me, to be accurate information.
IMO, Bonds was jealous of the attention Sosa and McGwire got during the 1998 season and decided (again, from ESPN news services);
I think it's very clear that Bonds began knowingly using illegal drugs during the late 90's to early 2000's and it helped his hitting performance tremendously.
I'm not saying any of that is incorrect. It just doesn't matter to me when considering how good Bonds or other presumed or admitted or proven PED users because I look at it as always being part of the game. If we're talking about character, then I wouldn't be lining up to sing the praises of guys like Bonds.
Here's what I said.
I think MLB is culpable here and these players shouldn't take all the blame. MLB should have done something about steroids in baseball before the fickle sentiment of the mob turned. It's pretty ridiculous to me.
Ruth drank alcohol during Prohibition, does that mean his records are wiped out too?
It was clearly illegal at the time.
Robb
Exactly how I see it. Happened in the NFL as well and no one cares.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Maybe you missed the part of my post where Bonds' numbers went through the roof after juicing?
MLB certainly knew what was going on.
That doesn't excuse the players.
edited to add; or the players union.
Maybe you missed the part of my post where Bonds' numbers went through the roof after juicing?
Maybe you missed the part where you said "No matter what the collective bargaining agreement says, they were illegal. " Taking an illegal substance is taking an illegal substance based on your own definition. Doesn't matter if it is steroids, greenies, alcohol, cocaine, etc.
You can't definitively prove that Ruth didn't benefit from his alcohol consumption which was against the laws of the US at the time. So he could have benefited from taking an illegal substance and apparently should be treated the same as Bonds.
In reality, alcohol probably didn't help Ruth hit a baseball but human bodies are amazing things. There are always outliers out there. You don't know what might benefit one person while harming another.
All that said, I put Pujols over Bonds as the best player of the 21st century thus far.
Robb
Ruth certainly didn't benefit from his overeating and drinking. His numbers were consistent during his career.
If anything his worst year, 1925 when he had major stomach problems was attributed to his bad habits.
By the way;
Players from all sports have been taking illegal substances as long as sports have been around.
Again, the correct answer to this question is Bonds.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
I always like to reflect whenever Bonds or Rose character flaws come up that before the age of information people need to realize that there were probably hundreds of ballplayers that beat their wives or did other terrible things behind closed doors that nobody every knew
No one's perfect.
For the most part, the people that get caught are generally the worst offenders.
Rose broke the #1 rule in baseball. Doing it as a manager is worse than if a player does it.
Bonds also really went to the maximum with his use, it became so obvious, you couldn't ignore it.
'No one's perfect'? Are you suggesting domestic violence is in the same vein as players who took PEDs?
'Went to the maximum'?
What is the 'maximum'? Are you suggesting the literal hundreds of other players who took banned substances are ok because they didn't go to the 'maximum'?
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Here. We. Go!
With what ones that are known Chapman and Ozuna are still active players in the league. As long as you dont fail a bunch of drug tests, pedophilia/sex trafficking/gambling (unless youre too valuable), or criticize the league openly a lot you wont get demonized. Drug usage didnt start in the 90s either
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
For those choosing Bonds, are you including his 14 years pre-2000 as part of his performance this century? Or are you saying that 7 years of Bonds in the 2000s is better than 22 years of Pujols (or another player who played solely post-2000)? Or are you saying “I don’t care what he did as a whole, peak Barry was the best baseball player post-2000, overall stats be damned”?
Jim
I think you could look at it either way. Considering only their accomplishments in the 00s or considering a players career with seasons in the 00s. I enjoyed considering both.
Peak bonds for a couple years was the best but I wouldnt have him as the best player of the 2000s. Right now its likely Pujols since Bonds just didnt play enough of his years in the 2000s. I wouldnt hate Trout or Othani being the pick either. They both put up the same prime seasons as Bonds for the century and Othani has the advantage of also being a very good pitcher as well before the TJ surgeries
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007