Best player of the 21st century
craig44
Posts: 11,457 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
with Ohtani's huge season, is he the best player of the 21st century? I would put the short list at:
Bonds
Pujols
Cabrera
Trout
Judge
Ohtani
I think it comes down to Bonds and Ohtani with Ohtani's pitching possibly putting him over the top. Though Bonds offensive stats were insane.
what do you guys think?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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Miguel Cabrera s triple crown season was pretty danm good
Bonds 73 HR:s was just flat out ridiculous
I say Ohtani and his 50/50 is what I'm most impressed with
All those guys have put up great numbers, Bonds, Cabrera and Pujols did it for a very long time so it's one of those guys since they are retired
Bonds was on steroids so that would disqualify him.
I think that if Ohtani can do this for another 3 seasons, he will probably be the guy for the 21st century.
Bonds was so insanely good for the first 6 years or so of the century it is hard to ignore. but Ohtani is a fantastic pitcher as well. it is kind of a toss up for be between those 2. However, If Ohtani can keep up this pace for a few more seasons and add pitching on top, I will definitely lean in his favor.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Bonds was by far the best. He had a 50-50 season and was ignored because McGuire and Sosa juiced the home run derby. He said, hold my beer.
Now no one remembers how really great he was He had a HOF career before the juice and I still believe he should get in.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Bonds never got to 50/50. he was a 40/40 guy though. perhaps more impressive though is that Bonds is the only member of the career 500/500 club.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Bonds has been retired long enough to qualify for the hall of fame but hasn’t gotten in.Now if we’re just going to completely ignore the 800 lb. gorilla in the room (STERIOIDS)then okay, he must not have been nearly as good as you say or he would have definitely gotten in.
Pujols.
Cabrera, Trout and Pujols all faded so quickly in their thirties that it’s hard to pick one. I’ll say it’s just too early in the century to decide.
Yeah my bad. I meant 40-40
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Ohtani would be hard to pick because he’s actually never played defense in his career.
Might go with Derek Jeter, no serious decline in skills as he aged and showed up every day. His defense was better than he gets credit for at one of the most important positions.
Pitchers get no respect for their defense
At least Jeters defense isn’t a contentious debate
In 15 years I’m pretty sure I’m going with Bobby Witt jr.
According to George Brett, Bobby is going to be the breaker of all his team records.
Show me Ohtani playing shortstop and going 50/50 and I’ll be impressed.
I’d say what Ohtani did at the plate & on the mound over those final three seasons with the Angels has to be the most impressive for me.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I would disagree. Pitcher is the most important player on defense.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Are you saying to erase what happened during the "steroid era"? As if it never happened?
Do we only erase known users? those who failed a drug test or admitted to it?
Do we erase those who we only suspect?
Do we give extra credit to those players who played against PED users? and how do we know who they are?
Do you think we know every person who used during that era? So we are to erase only some stats and not others?
at this point, we just need to use the statistical record. it is all we have. Should we attempt to normalize pre integration players because they only played against White players? That certainly was an advantage, dont you think?
Keep in mind, PED were not against the rules until 2005-2006. before that, within the rules.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If George Brett is that high on Bobby Witt jr. then I need to really start paying more attention to him. Though I cant imagine a player supplanting George on the all time Royals list.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Erase Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and Clemens. If you want to throw in an occasional Palmeiro that’s fine but let’s get the main four and have their statistics obolished.
ESPN posted this about Ohtani’s performance last night:
First, Ohtani became the first player in major league history with multiple home runs, multiple stolen bases and five hits in a game (he also had seven RBIs). When he hit his third home run in the ninth inning, he became just the second player with six hits and five extra-base hits in a game, matching former Dodgers outfielder Shawn Green (Ohtani broke Green's club record of 49 home runs on Thursday, as well). And Ohtani's the first player with five extra-base hits and 10 RBIs in a game.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Ohtani has only pitched 86 games, so he’s played defense for half a season in his career.
So... In your mind, PED use is not admissible for some, but is for others? I am completely lost when it comes to your view on this. keep in mind, pre 2006, it was all within the rules. Palmeiro failed a test, but he is fine?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Derek Jeter was an abysmal fielder. just about any expert or statistician would agree.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Best if you add a disclaimer that drug use is not a disqualifier. Then it comes down to two players, Barry Bonds and Shohei Ohtani. All of the other candidates are pretenders.
If you ignore the PED usage, Bond's eclipsed hard drinking Babe Ruth, well at least for a season. Ohtani would probably say that it is his interpreter that is cycling, but if he is able to produce home runs consistently for a few more years, he will eclipse Bonds.
To exclude the drug users, which is the only honest way to evaluate this question, then the poll list would have to be blank, as the few non druggies of the quarter century are almost impossible to isolate.
why would PED use pre 2006 be a disqualifier? There were no MLB rules against it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I believe that there were. Don't feel like researching it though.
It is a generational thing though. You are a younger guy so the puffed up players were the norm. That is ok. The NFL fans, even the geezers, have accepted juiced players for many decades.
Problem is, a lab like Balco can add 20 home runs a season. where the less adept producers may only add ten. So we have to start doing, "which is the better manufacturer polls". That would get messy.
The collectively bargained rules against anabolic steroids were voted on and enacted before the 2006 season.
before that there was a "guidance" from Fay Vincent, but that, even according to him was not a rule.
how do you know Balco added 20 home runs/season? do you have data to back that up? how do you know it wasnt 30? or 2? That sounds more like a "feeling" as opposed to actual data driven evidence.
I agree, there is a completely different level of acceptance from fans of the NFL.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I've been giving steroids to my Boxers off and on (mostly on) for years and I've never seen them hit a home run. They have stolen plenty of bases, but not quite in the MLB sense.
Jokes aside, it's an interesting question. Ignoring the ethical questions, I consider both peak and longevity with regard to a player's greatness and wider contribution to their team and the game in general. I feel comfortable with this ranking.
Honestly I can switch the order around a little and it still looks fine.
The Century is barely a quarter gone. None of us will be around to have this discussion in the year 2100. The GOTC has quite likely yet to be born or hatched.
Bundalay, sahvay.
The world might be gone by 2100 so your statement might be false lol
Indeed. I'll consult with the aliens and ask if they can holdout on destroying us until then so somebody can finish this argument.
Bundalay, sahvay.
I just assumed it was 'to date'.
It's Bonds and it's not particularly close.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Tom Brady
I thought it was on Baseball, otherwise I absolutely would have named Brady
Youre assuming that the best of the century will play at the end of it. Ruth was the best of his century and he was born in the century before it.
If Othani keeps hitting like this and even pitches decently its going to be almost impossible to pass him. 2 way players are like unicorns
Realistically by 2090 the rules will be so different that stats then will have to be looked differently than stats today, just like stats today have to be looked at differently than stats in the 1980s
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Yeah, I thought about that before I posted but just wanted to put Tom's name in the mix since there was no specific sport mentioned in the question.
I was thinking baseball only. otherwise I would have made the same choice!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Pujols didn't really fade until he was 35. And, even then, he hit 40 homers. .268 with 31 homers at 36 years old.
What Pujols did from 2001-2012 makes him the best player of the century.
Bonds
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Incorrect, my friend. My theory is quite simply that a greatest player of a particular century couldn't be chosen until the century is completed or close to being so. If it's your opinion that no one else will emerge as that player over the next 75 years, then, cool.
Bundalay, sahvay.
>
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CLEARLY the correct answer.
Controlled substance act of 1970 is when steroids became illegal.
No matter what the collective bargaining agreement says, they were illegal. End of discussion on that point.
Bonds was obviously a wonderful player, but as we saw, he was a 30-35 a year HR hitter for years until he juiced up.
Cabrera had 13 superb seasons in a row 2004-2016!
Trout deserves mention for his 2012-2019 run of greatness.
Judge and Otahni have a few great years, but neither are going to make long runs like Albert, Miquel and Mike.
Greenies were illegal too, so erase Aaron, Mantle, etc.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
About pitching
Tim MacCarver once said about Bob Gibson.
“He’s the luckiest pitcher I’ve ever seen. He always pitches when the other team doesn’t score any runs.”
No bearing on this thread but upping my post total
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
oh boy, we have been over this ad nauseum. It was not collectively bargained to be against the rules of baseball until the 2006 season. Ask Fay Vincent. he would tell you the same thing.
to prove it was not against the rules, if you dont believe former comish vincent, there was no testing and no consequences.
no testing, no consequences, no rule.
Bonds as an example. was he juicing in 1993 when he hit 46 home runs in his first year in san fransisco?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
they will just say greenies dont count. or dont count "as much"
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So steroids have been illegal to use in the United States since 1970 unless you have exempt status as a mlb player since the rules of baseball trump the laws of the US?
Craig is this correct?
Was murder collectively bargained to be against the rules of baseball? If it’s a law in the US - e.g. steroids are a controlled substance - it shouldn’t have to be collectively bargained. Even I f they had prescriptions for obviously illegitimate reasons, then the docs are guilty too.
Back to the topic, even if Bonds and steroids are allowed in the conversation, my vote goes to Pujols. Too much of big head Barry’s career was pre-2000.
Jim
Darin - they were, and still are, illegal to use without a prescription. But not all steroids, because the word "steroid" is pretty generic.
that's a great point. I didn't consider how much of Bonds' career was pre-2k. I would probably flip my top 3 around based on that. but I would also probably have A-Rod and Ortiz in the mix.
Craig is still trying to say all steroids were legal in baseball because there was no rule against them.
Like baseball has its own laws and are exempt from all US laws.
It's not very clear though. I can see both sides of this argument, though I would side with agreeing that "Steroids" were not allowed by the rules since 1971. I could easily make a successful argument for either side. The problem I have with the whole debate about Steroids and other PEDs is that PEDs had really been a huge part of baseball since the 19th century. I'll also agree that the methods and practices with application of PEDs had really become a big business and the amount of performance improvement from these targeted cocktails was not easily dismissed as negligible as had been historically. But, just like I don't care about testosterone & amphetamines from the past, I also don't care about steroids and human growth hormone with regard to measuring a player's performance. I don't care because we have tools to measure a player to the mean. It wasn't fair, and if MLB wasn't completely aware of it, and it was only a handful of players, I would say those players should be banned. But MLB knew - and it wasn't a few - so sure... naughty boys, but I look past those transgressions just like I look past the transgressions of the greatest players of past eras. I'm also fine if people have a different read on the situation. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right how I view it.
My revised list.
Pujols
A-Rod
Cabrera
Ortiz
Bonds
Ohtani
Judge
I also think, even if Ohtani returns to Ace pitching form, Judge could out-pace him eventually, and even get a bump if his play in center field continues to improve.