Downgrading a coin

johnny010

Hello

If I have a coin in VF20 (or any grade, doesn’t matter but wanting one grade lower) what is the process of downgrading to F15? I know there can be a lot of variables but if I want the coin in F15 what’s the process?

Sapyx

The short answer is, of course, "wear".

The longer answer: you can induce wear in several ways. The most "honest" way, in terms of being closest to actual authentic wear from circulation, is to use it as a "pocket-piece".

Hitting the target grade, and not making the victim coin even worse than the target grade, is of course the tricky part. I assume the way to go about this would be to always carry around a slabbed version of the coin in the target grade, and keep wearing down the victim coin until the wear patterns on the two coins seem to match.

You could probably find or invent some form of artificial accelerated process that works just as well - the old "walnut shells in the ball mill" technique, perhaps. Such methods, as with all other forms of coin doctoring, carry the drawback of possibly qualifying as "altered surfaces" if not done right. You'd probably need to destroy an awful lot of perfectly good coins in order to perfect your technique. An accelerated technique will also likely need to be artifically retoned, which is another possible reason for the victim being given "altered surfaces".

Of course, if you've got the time and the budget, you could always play a kind of reverse-crackout-game and continually re-submit your VF-20 coin until someone eventually grades it as F-15.

PeakRarities

You just crack it out and submit it a few times and if the coin is a liner, you likely wont have to try that many times. Im going to downgrade the beaver eventually, but since that one is an overgraded crossover, ill just put cross as 45 minimum and if they like it enough as a 45 theyll cross it.

If you really want to have some fun, you could first cross it to NGC as a VF20, and then submit it as a crossover. Theres a great chance of the bias against NGC working in your favor there .

DisneyFan

Offer to do an even exchange with someone who has the lower grade. A WIN-WIN for everybody involved.

Rollerman

Why not sell the VF and buy one in F?

DisneyFan

@Rollerman said:
Why not sell the VF and buy one in F?

Probably because the proceeds from selling the VF will be less than the cost of buying the F.

Dave99B

I put together a complete set of Barber quarters in PCGS VF. Many of the coins had been purchased raw, many years ago, so I sent them off to PCGS for grading, expecting to get back VF grades. I think about six came back XF40. Whoops. Oh well, I simply sold them on eBay, and continued searching for an acceptable VF example. No problem.

Dave

PeakRarities

I just thought of another way to do it, but you could send it to CACG for a cross at any grade, and maybe theyll call it a F15. Then you send it back to PCGS to cross again and hope they dont upgrade it.

privatecoin

Send it to CACG it should downgrade right? Wait probably to a details. Ok never mind.

PeakRarities

@Rollerman said:
Why not sell the VF and buy one in F?

That sounds fairly easy, but knowing @johnny010, it would likely be a scarce issue or something thats not often available. The buy/sell spread on each transaction could very well make it so he gains nothing financially and ends up with a lesser value coin.

PerryHall

Why would you want to down grade a coin?

jmlanzaf

Use a sharpie on the label..

Could you clarify the goal. Is the coin an actual VF or is it an overgraded F15?

If it is overgraded, resubmission or reconsideration would be the strategy.

If the coin is an actual VF that you want to impair then you need to wear it down "naturally". But why? Unless it is a widget, that seems a bit of a numismatic crime.

M4Madness

@DisneyFan said:
Offer to do an even exchange with someone who has the lower grade. A WIN-WIN for everybody involved.

He mentioned in another thread that he's doing a Carson City Morgan set in F15 and had to settle for an 1885-CC in VF20.

I'm in the same boat, only I'm doing a XF45 set. I desperately need a 1884-CC in XF45. I own both an XF40 and AU50, but not an XF45. I'd gladly trade THE PAIR for a single XF45, but they just arent common. Both of my coins look solid (to me anyway) for their grades, so even though I have thought of resubmitting them, I wouldn't have high hopes of it working.

1884-CC and 1885-CC Morgans are tough in any CIRCULATED grades. There are thousands of MS specimens though, thanks to the GSA.

OAKSTAR

@PerryHall said:
Why would you want to down grade a coin?

Not sure of @johnny010 reasoning but there are collectors here that are looking for one of each grade of a particular series and graded by the same TPG'er.

BillJones

Why do you want a lower grade? There is not a lot of difference between F-15 and VF-20. If you goal is to have everything in a set in the same assigned grade, I think that is kind of silly.

BillJones

@OAKSTAR said:

@PerryHall said:
Why would you want to down grade a coin?

Not sure of @johnny010 reasoning but there are collectors here that are looking for one of each grade of a particular series and graded by the same TPG'er.

In that case it’s probably cheaper to buy a coin in the grade you want than go after it via resubmissions.

PeakRarities

@BillJones said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@PerryHall said:
Why would you want to down grade a coin?

Not sure of @johnny010 reasoning but there are collectors here that are looking for one of each grade of a particular series and graded by the same TPG'er.

In that case it’s probably cheaper to buy a coin in the grade you want than go after it via resubmissions.

If it’s a widget, sure. If it’s a scarce coin that trades infrequently, then the dealer spread x2 would cost him the same amount of money to downgrade.

M4Madness

@BillJones said:
If you goal is to have everything in a set in the same assigned grade, I think that is kind of silly.

I see nothing silly about it, from my perspective. Everyone has different goals for their collecting. There are many who want them all in AU58. Myself, I have ZERO interest in a mint state coin, but many here would love a complete MS64 set of their favorite type. Collectors can be loose or constrictive as they choose. I believe he's actually set a pretty tough goal for himself, as not only does he want F15, but he wants them all CAC as well.

Bill, I always read your posts with high regard, so this is nothing more than a difference of opinion on a particular topic.

BillJones

I've been working a lightly circulated Indian Cent set. My raw grades are EF to AU. I'm within 6 coins of completing it, although I'm not going back an buying the coins I already have in certified Mint State. I also bought the 1877 in a PCGS EF-40 slab. Raw ones are too risky. I know what the real thing looks like, but to sell it, you would have to get it certified.

Some collects would want the coins in this set to have identical colors. That is impossible, unless the coins have been played with. The bronze differed from year to year.

johnny010

The coin seems like a liner in another brand’s holder. I don’t want a straight cross since I’m doing a F15 or below set in CAC. I don’t see anywhere to request this downgrade, but I also don’t want to assume they will downgrade the coin since there seems to be a lot of pressure on the industry around grading in general.

Sounds like there is no option to request a specific grade but hopefully they see the coin as I do.

golden

I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

logger7

Just send it to the cac headquarters in VA raw; you're sure to get a downgrade, and if you're really lucky, it will come back VG10!

david3142

@golden said:
I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

Did both of you realize that an NGC 61 generally trades for about $3K more than a PCGS 58? That’s a pretty big loss to take for registry purposes when you could just sell yours and buy another.

PeakRarities

@david3142 said:

@golden said:
I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

Did both of you realize that an NGC 61 generally trades for about $3K more than a PCGS 58? That’s a pretty big loss to take for registry purposes when you could just sell yours and buy another.

He's not going to able to get 100% of the value on either end of the transaction though. On a 15-16k coin a dealer is going to want to make 10%, and when you consider that multiply it by two transactions, you're back where you started.

That said, A nice original 58 will bring as much as, if not more than a ratty looking 61. Often times, the grade is interchangeable on a coin like that. If you already have one that appeals to your personal tastes, it might make more sense to downgrade it.

david3142

@PeakRarities said:

@david3142 said:

@golden said:
I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

Did both of you realize that an NGC 61 generally trades for about $3K more than a PCGS 58? That’s a pretty big loss to take for registry purposes when you could just sell yours and buy another.

He's not going to able to get 100% of the value on either end of the transaction though. On a 15-16k coin a dealer is going to want to make 10%, and when you consider that multiply it by two transactions, you're back where you started.

That said, A nice original 58 will bring as much as, if not more than a ratty looking 61. Often times, the grade is interchangeable on a coin like that. If you already have one that appeals to your personal tastes, it might make more sense to downgrade it.

I don’t disagree with most of that. And obviously, in this case, the coin is the same so the holder shouldn’t make as much difference as a typical 61 vs a typical 58. You won’t pay the spread twice though. That’s double-counting.

1madman

@david3142 said:

@golden said:
I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

Did both of you realize that an NGC 61 generally trades for about $3K more than a PCGS 58? That’s a pretty big loss to take for registry purposes when you could just sell yours and buy another.

He’ll look like a genius when he gets that pcgs 58 a gold cac sticker

david3142

@1madman said:

@david3142 said:

@golden said:
I once had a $20 1907 High Relief in an NGC 61 holder. I wanted a PCGS 58 For my Everyman Registry Set. I showed it to a
dealer that I had known for 45+ years. He suggested that I send it to PCGS. I did and it came back PCGS 58. Just what I wanted.

Did both of you realize that an NGC 61 generally trades for about $3K more than a PCGS 58? That’s a pretty big loss to take for registry purposes when you could just sell yours and buy another.

He’ll look like a genius when he gets that pcgs 58 a gold cac sticker

Fair point! That would be the ultimate Everyman type coin: a gold stickered HR Saint.

sellitstore

Yes, we all know that a 58 can be worth more than a 61. In that range it's a matter of which coin looks better, not the technical grade as much. We would have to see both, and even then, there might well be disagreement.

PeakRarities

@sellitstore said:
Yes, we all know that a 58 can be worth more than a 61. In that range it's a matter of which coin looks better, not the technical grade as much. We would have to see both, and even then, there might well be disagreement.

Your comment prompted me to look through the APRs of non CAC 61s, and looking back, some of them look like they would be really nice 58s that could be arbitraged. Next time i see a nice 61 like that Ill buy it and give it a shot.