$20.00 Lib From PCGS to NGC to CACG -Grading Results-
Luxor
Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭✭
......and just to add that in addition to being straight graded by PCGS and NGC, I also showed the coin to 3 very prominent CACG dealer members at ANA who all agreed the coin was pretty much a lock 64+ anywhere and maybe better on a lucky day.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
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What does questionable surfaces mean? Is that cleaned, tooled, plated, questionable color? Can’t say I’ve ever seen that phrase before.
Well, that's interesting.
The grading companies appreciate your business.
Wow, that seriously blows.
Dave
Were you doing this as an experiment just to see the difference between TPGs?
At least today, that is barely worth above melt in any of the holders.
Not surprised...... CACG is new or newish they have to be ultra conservative. But really a poll by all members here would be difficult becasue the coin is not in hand. Who do you think is correct?
This reminds me of a deal I was trying to get done... Back in like 2010.. I was in Chicago.. I had shipped a significant amount of 90% to a prominent dealer in Chicago... Then I shipped some MAtte Proofs and a handful of MS Barber Halves in OGH. I get to the shop.. I was trying to raise money because Heritage was going to help finance a deal of early Date walkers I was working on that were coming to the market. So, we settle on a price on the silver... We sit down looking at the Barbers all MS all PCGS holders and the dealer was like... No this is not original or no this is no good... It got so heated that I have not spoke to the dealer since...
It also made me swear that I would learn to grade the coins I was seeking for my collections... Ended up shipping everything back to home base and the deal never went through. It was disappointing...
My point is 2 fold...
1) I believe CAC is trying to be the gate keeper to graded coins thus they are, at times, using a grading standard that is not the generally accepted "industry standard."
2) Some dealers will show a level of pedanticism when they believe they have the upper hand (Knowledge wise)...
By gones be bygones..
Learned a lot that trip ...
Wow
Casual collector, mostly Morgans & Peace Dollars.
Ouch.
I pulled up the CACG photo and in my opinion there are several areas of concern regarding the surfaces. Not sure if its putty or something else, but the ares do look somewhat "weird".
Most graders are going to spend all of 5 seconds looking at this coin, its a common coin in a common grade that isn't much of a premium over melt. Maybe a video could help, but I'm not sure what we can learn without having the coin in hand. If anything, this just goes to show that CACG trying to make an effort to maintain their standards, regardless of the value.
The circled areas are what looks strange to me.
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If I recall, in CAC parlance “questionable surfaces” means there’s a foreign substance on the coin that they don’t think should be there. Might be something that could be easily conserved.
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I think if there is any foreign matter on the surface (such as "putty" or PVC residue) it looks to me like it is mostly on the face and a little under the chin and to a lesser extent in other locations. I would try acetone and submit again.
Also note that this sort of thing can turn a little bit cloudy over a relatively short time span, going from invisible to visible. How much time elapsed between the various submissions ?
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<<< Also note that this sort of thing can turn a little bit cloudy over a relatively short time span, going from invisible to visible. How much time elapsed between the various submissions ? >>>
Quite a long time. In addition, while possible, it doesn't seem very likely to me that both PCGS, NGC and a few high profile dealers who also examined the coin with a glass as well as myself using my cheapo coin microscope all missed a foreign substance on the obverse.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Source: https://www.cacgrading.com/doc/cac-grading-details-code-breakdown/
Was anything done to these coins between crack out stages?
No, definitely not.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I had a nicely rainbow rim toned Isabella quarter in ANACS62 and sent to PCGS which returned as cleaned. Could not see any hairlines and assumed it was a box checked as cleaned vs assumed AT. Resubmitted to PCGS and then returned as filed rims. Rims were perfect. Eventually the coin went to NGC and graded 62.
That was 3 years ago when first started using grading services. Other coins were returned with grades felt high. I realized quickly professional opinions amounted to shades of grey.
Sending a coin to a grading company is similar to the perils of flying.
Once it leaves your front door, you have no control of anything.
That's why I completely dislike flying and it's why I limit my coin submissions.
"The perils of flying."
You have a much larger chance of getting killed while driving or being driven to the airport- or anywhere.
The facts are this:
The probability of a fatal plane crash is extremely low. A cursory search shows that the risk of your plane going down is around 1 in 5.4 million and the risk of being killed in a plane crash for the average American is about 1 in 11 million.
peacockcoins
Would it be bad form for me to offer you melt for it as a details graded coin?
Based on the photos, I'd guess "nose greased", one of the most subtle enhancements.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I wasn't referring to dying.
Rather, you have no control of anything to do with your flight.
Why would you take a downgrade from 64+ to details? It’s easy enough to lose money in RCI.
I’m sure it wasn’t intentional.
Oh ok. I would be furious if downgrade like that. That wb the last time they got any my money. Any cross somewhere I put minimum grade.
I've seen coins in details holders for "Residue" before, if that is indeed the reason for this QS designation, couldn't it have been deemed "Residue" instead?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Sorry.
I misinterpreted your use of "peril."
Perhaps if the airlines would bring back salted nuts we would all be better off.
peacockcoins
Thank you for doing this. It costs us nothing and we get to see the results. Appreciate it. I would share it will all three grading services head people and with the big auction houses if you have that kind of pull....
What would be the reason for that?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Because one coin will show them more about the certified coin market than they already know.
Everyone already knows NGC grades loose.
64 vs 64+?
For all we know, submitted 10x to each might yield five 64 and five 64+ from each.
There's really nothing we can learn from one coin. It might even straight grade if it was submitted a second time to CACG.
While it's an interesting anecdotal result, no one is going to learn anything definitive from this, especially the auction houses and grading services who handle thousands of coins per week.
I just said no one is going to learn anything.
Ironically enough, your offer of melt is probably one of the highest out there right now with the current market conditions of elevated gold price coupled with lower premium demand.
even if it is straight graded, it will be close to melt
As you can both tell, I haven’t been following the market. That is sad that no one seems to appreciate these!
Most dealers I know would say “ spot times. .9675 “. And they’re prominent dealers and ANA guys, too.
I don’t agree with the CAC details grade and would have kept it in the NGC 64 plus holder avoiding MV loss. Then used the 64 plus MV as basis in pricing of course open to negotiation / of course goal move at positive margin. Wish reverse photo available.
With its super luster confident it should sell. Certainly a super investment buy for any type set. Nice NGC MS64 plus. MS70 is perfect.
In all due respect, this thread has nothing to do with markup, margins, selling, or investment, it's about the grades assigned to the coin by three different TPGs. One's "bourse mentality" need not be activated at all times.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
The CAC - It’s a shocking downgrade result. Do you have something of substance - an opinion about the grading?
And your point about the discussion subject is? Do you even collect coins Lol?
Well I have 8000 plus posts so your a real laugh.
Are stalking me lol? Reported
Not in this thread, you didn’t. Your latest comment about NGC grading loosely (“Everyone already knows NGC grades loose.”) didn’t quite cover what people might learn about subjects other than NGC’s grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, my opinion, put more bluntly, is that CACG could stand to give more insight on their grading. Its current public image of giving details grades to "market acceptable" coins might deter potential customers. A coin that receives a less obvious details grade, like Questionable Surfaces, could be given a note pointing out problem area(s). Even the coin savants on this forum are having trouble identifying this foreign substance from pics. Not that I don't think the other TPGs shouldn't also give grader notes, but it has been suggested before and hasn't happened yet. If it were me starting a TPG, I would try to include as many services not provided by competitors as possible.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
You’re (not “your”) living proof that a post count in the thousands doesn’t necessarily equate to being a solid contributor.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Do you think NGC grades loose compared to PCGS at all?
Often times, yes. But that wasn’t the subject of this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That CACG grades strict? Everyone already knew that also.
Are you implying that since "everyone" already knows the differences in grading between TPGs, there was no reason to post this thread because it follows the general pattern?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
You claimed “i just said no one is going to learn anything.”, even though you hadn’t said that. When I called you on it, rather than acknowledging it, you brought up NGC’s grading. And now you’ve changed course again. I’m not going to join you in your games.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
While I totally agree with you that it is an educational benefit to the submitter when TPG's give as much info as possible, they will have to draw the line somewhere. While they could have different designations for putty, residue, artificial color, etc, it might be an overcomplication rather than using broad terms like "Questionable surfaces" or similar. The graders have a computer screen, and they input their grade, or lack thereof, using different codes. It's difficult to convey the exact reason why the coin is a no grade, thus it's condensed into broad simplifications that can fit easily on the label. Same goes for the other grading services, though the verbiage might differ. Like you, I would LOVE to get more information on my no grades, but I've come to terms with the fact that it may not be practical from a business perspective.
"Even the coin savants on this forum are having trouble identifying this foreign substance from pics."
Trying to identify whatever is on the surfaces of this coin, or any coin for that matter, from pictures alone is a fools errand. Hence, my (and others) statements that accurately point out that we're not going to learn anything from this post. If there was a video, perhaps, but I'm sure can all agree that there is no substitute for tilting and rotating a coin under a good light.
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